Getting women (&men) to call themselves feminist

[Poison Tree]

My biggest problem with "feminist" is that the term has so many meanings it almost means nothing, but always seems to be used as if describing a monolithic structure. For example I have repeatedly been told that feminists want divorced men to have equal custody of children (and even that courts predominately awarding custody to women was the patriarchy trying to oppress women and force them back into the kitchen), yet the actions NOW and similar groups seem focused on preventing efforts to promote equal custody, not shaping them.

My second biggest problem is that, far too often, I see "patriarchy" used as a knee jerk, not even wrong libel--though this may come from hearing too much from the social-justice club of feminism.

For three years I watched my two boys, cleaned the house, washed dishes, cooked the meals---I still do---while my wife was the bread winner. I couldn't believe how much flack I got from my father-in-law and other men.

I wish this was an issue that got more focus. I can't stand it when some father refers to watching his own child as "baby sitting." No ,it isn't; It is fucking parenting. The idea that a man watching his child is so bizarre that it should only happen if Peggy Sue from down the street is busy tonight not only reenforce the idea that a women's proper place is at home raising the children, but also creates 'Cats in the Cradle' syndrome by convincing men that earning money in more important than actually living a life with their family.

[hillbillyatheist]

oh and seeing the fireman thing. its a basic biological fact that men on average are physically stronger than women on average.

This isn't to say there aren't really strong women and really weak men I'm speaking of averages here.

and firemen need to be able to haul 300 pound unconscious victms out of burning buildings while wearing a shit load of gear.

so when it seems to be a majority male occupation, that shouldn't be seen as sexist

seems to me its what you would expect.
that said, if a woman takes the tests needed and passes, fine by me, but I've heard of places lowering their test requirements so more women could qualify to avoid being seen as sexist. if this is true, thats asinine.

if you can't do the job, you can't do it.

[surly74]

oh and seeing the fireman thing. its a basic biological fact that men on average are physically stronger than women on average.

This isn't to say there aren't really strong women and really weak men I'm speaking of averages here.

and firemen need to be able to haul 300 pound unconscious victms out of burning buildings while wearing a shit load of gear.

so when it seems to be a majority male occupation, that shouldn't be seen as sexist

seems to me its what you would expect.
that said, if a woman takes the tests needed and passes, fine by me, but I've heard of places lowering their test requirements so more women could qualify to avoid being seen as sexist. if this is true, thats asinine.

if you can't do the job, you can't do it.

A Canadian province has said it hasn't lowered standards and the number of women is probably consistent with that.

[url]http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/observer/story.html?id=c27ecfc2-2a5e-477e-b401-526a3916c991/url]

however in the UK, at least in 2011 the story is different.

[url]http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1375381/Fire-service-strength-fitness-tests-relaxed-allow-women-firefighters.html/url]

i wouldn't qualify for the male standards, i'm 5'7 165. I might be able to become a fireman in the UK but not in Canada. I don't ask for Canadian standards to be lowered to give me a better chance.

[hillbillyatheist]

I wouldn't qualify either. and I reconize some women would. the bottom line though is either you can or you can't. gender is moot.  but if its a male dominated occupation, that seems to make sense to me, and isn't a sign of sexism. but I've had feminist get very mad at me in college over saying this.

[surly74]

good topic Smartmarzipan.

[missingnocchi]

though I feel more comfortable with the label atheist, than feminist because I think atheism does describe quite nicely how I feel about gods, whereas feminist doesn't because its women focused, and I am people focused. Egalitarian just sounds better to me. though I'll say again I know based on how many feminists use the term and see it, I fit the bill.

What is wrong with being women-focused, though?

We have gay rights movements which are focused on gay people.

We have minority movements focused on minorities.

We have child advocacy groups focused on children.

What is so wrong about a feminist movement focused on the specific problems of women?

I find it strange that I really only encounter this "I'm about people" attitude when talking about feminism.

Feminists constantly insist that the men's rights movement shouldn't exist because feminism will solve male gender based problems as well. If that's the case, then the name should reflect the idea of abolishing all gender discrimination. I agree that women bear the majority of the problems, but I think that's a bad reason to make it the headline, for the very reasons you espouse in the argument above.

[Shiranu]

... keeping the conversation to developed countries and the US in a truly equal capacity, where are women discriminated against for being women?

Pay inequality - Women make less for the same jobs.

//http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2013/04/09/1839281/on-equal-pay-day-why-women-are-paid-less-than-men/

Glass Ceiling - Though 50% of the work force, in the last 20 years women CEOs have only gone up from 35% to 38%. Also are underrepresented at the top of pretty much profession.

//http://www.trustwomenpac.org/2012/03/gender-inequality-in-the-u-s-today-part-2/

How about the blame the victim mentality that is prevalent in American society? "Oh, she shouldn't wear such slutty clothes! Oh she was out too late! Oh...". This isn't just normal people saying this; these are public figures, politicians.  

What about the war on women's reproductive and health rights?

[surly74]

Pay inequality - Women make less for the same jobs.
//http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2013/04/09/1839281/on-equal-pay-day-why-women-are-paid-less-than-men/

i might have missed it but it said average women make less than average man. i didn't see a job comparison, that was in another link. does it take into account, education? experience? did the women take time off for having children? now, i know those are examples in the first article as what a naysayer says but it's relevant. also, read the comments because there seems to be a solution.

compare apples to apples. generalized stuff gets no where. lets compare women truck drivers to men truck drivers? or women coal miners to male coal miners. how about women garbage collectors to male garbage collectors. or don't women do into those jobs?

Glass Ceiling - Though 50% of the work force, in the last 20 years women CEOs have only gone up from 35% to 38%. Also are underrepresented at the top of pretty much profession.

and? maybe men make better CEO's. there are more men entrepreneurs so it stands that more men would be CEO's. I'm not a CEO and the reason is I'm probably not CEO material. do i deserve a token position? how many women CEO's actually started the company...name me one fortune 500 company started by a woman?

I mean, every once in a while a white guy is on an NBA court. How come no one ever fights to get more white guys in the NBA? why is it business? why aren't people up in arms that there aren't any women in the NFL? NBA? NHL? MLB? There are in racing but that's a different animal where it's not just performance that's taken into account. gotta get sponsors.

There's no outcry because in those sports it's purely performance related. That's why asshole athletes still get jobs. Why isn't business the same? what is it about business that isn't performance related?

//http://www.trustwomenpac.org/2012/03/gender-inequality-in-the-u-s-today-part-2/

How about the blame the victim mentality that is prevalent in American society? "Oh, she shouldn't wear such slutty clothes! Oh she was out too late! Oh...". This isn't just normal people saying this; these are public figures, politicians.

if your politicians are being asshats...elect new ones. it's not men's fault they get voted in. women vote too. people are quick to bitch and protest and sign petitions asking for a "voice" you get one. vote the jackass out and vote in someone that will have your views.

do women in the US get lighter sentences for similar crimes? preferential treatment when it comes to kids? when was the last time you heard a father murdering his whole family?

why is it when rape is mentioned the guy (usually a guy) is considered guilty until proven innocent? that's the only crime where due process is thrown out the window. the only crime where there isn't a question if it actually happened. just ask some duke lacrosse players.

i can't say someone did something to me and have everyone assume the person i accused automatically did it.

What about the war on women's reproductive and health rights?

yeah, and there are women who have attacked women's reproductive and health rights too. it's not solely the domain of men but again, get smarter politicians, women vote.

where is testicular cancer month? or prostate cancer awareness month? you can't go October without being bombarded by pink ribbons. show me one person in the developing world that hasn't heard of breast cancer.

[Valigarmander]

I'm all for womens' rights, but I'm not a feminist. I don't want to be associated with those strident man-haters.

I don't believe in God, but I'm not an atheist. I don't want to be associated with those strident God-haters.

This was a sarcastic post.

[Solitary]

I have found that most so-called men like jocks are assholes, and can't understand why so many women are attracted to them.

Human sexuality has virtually nothing to do with our current societal values.

Really? Human sexuality encompasses the sexual knowledge, beliefs, attitudes, values, and behaviors of individuals. Its various dimensions involve the anatomy, physiology, and biochemistry of the sexual response system; identity, orientation, roles, and personality; and thoughts, feelings, and relationships. Sexuality is influenced by ethical, spiritual, cultural, and moral concerns. All persons are sexual, in the broadest sense of the word.

Sexuality is an intrinsic component of human identity. The variety of cultural beliefs, values, and customs related to sexuality has profound influence on both society and individuals. Cultural beliefs and norms are influenced and expressed through many institutions including families, communities, schools, faith-based organizations, and mass media. These institutions have an obligation to affirm sexuality in ways that support the sexual health and rights of all members of any society. Solitary

[Smartmarzipan]

I've often said, "because I believe in equality, I am not a feminist."

The problem is that those who call themselves feminists refuse to define themselves.  And when I say that, I mean they refuse to confront the extremists of the movement.  

Um, that's simply not true.

The response is too often NAFALT (not all feminists are like that) when an example of an extremist is brought up.

That, again, is not true.

In fact, the author in the article points out that the feminist movement needs to stop being so narrow-minded and embrace all kinds of women and pleads with others to help reform the movement for the betterment of all.

Until feminists confront their own extremists, either to embrace them or to reject them, then it should be hard for anyone to tall oneself a feminist at all.

DID NO ONE READ THE ARTICLE!??

[surly74]

it's a reasonable position and viewpoint.

[Nonsensei]

I have found that most so-called men like jocks are assholes, and can't understand why so many women are attracted to them.

Human sexuality has virtually nothing to do with our current societal values.

Really? Human sexuality encompasses the sexual knowledge, beliefs, attitudes, values, and behaviors of individuals. Its various dimensions involve the anatomy, physiology, and biochemistry of the sexual response system; identity, orientation, roles, and personality; and thoughts, feelings, and relationships. Sexuality is influenced by ethical, spiritual, cultural, and moral concerns. All persons are sexual, in the broadest sense of the word.

Sexuality is an intrinsic component of human identity. The variety of cultural beliefs, values, and customs related to sexuality has profound influence on both society and individuals. Cultural beliefs and norms are influenced and expressed through many institutions including families, communities, schools, faith-based organizations, and mass media. These institutions have an obligation to affirm sexuality in ways that support the sexual health and rights of all members of any society. Solitary

What, did you copy and paste that out of a textbook? I don't come here for that. Talk to me in your own words or not at all.

[Smartmarzipan]

it's a reasonable position and viewpoint.

What is?

[surly74]

the article but it's being self sabotaged by having feminism in the title. this freedom feminisim title doesn't do it any good because people jump to conclusions about the movement's motives.

I think this is a perfect example of the level headedness that needs to happen.

First, gender gaps in wages, political leadership, and the professions would not automatically be taken as proof of discrimination. Freedom feminists allow that there could be innocent explanations for disparities. Instead, its focus would be on genuine injustice.

this also flies in the face of sterotypical feminists which I applaud.

Second, the women's lobby would muster the courage to address a root cause of poverty in America: missing fathers. Freedom feminists may well join their more progressive sisters in supporting initiatives to assist poverty-stricken single mothers; but the primary focus would be on combatting male-averse educational and social policies that have helped create a dysfunctional culture of fatherlessness.

i don't know what you call it it but a common sense revolution. allow moderate viewpoints and guys like me won't get all defensive.