Getting women (&men) to call themselves feminist

Started by Smartmarzipan, June 26, 2013, 02:38:51 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Smartmarzipan

Quote from: "hillbillyatheist"though I feel more comfortable with the label atheist, than feminist because I think atheism does describe quite nicely how I feel about gods, whereas feminist doesn't because its women focused, and I am people focused. Egalitarian just sounds better to me. though I'll say again I know based on how many feminists use the term and see it, I fit the bill.

What is wrong with being women-focused, though?

We have gay rights movements which are focused on gay people.

We have minority movements focused on minorities.

We have child advocacy groups focused on children.

What is so wrong about a feminist movement focused on the specific problems of women?

I find it strange that I really only encounter this "I'm about people" attitude when talking about feminism.
Legi, Intellexi, Condemnavi.

"Religion is the human response to being alive and having to die." ~Anon

Inter arma enim silent leges

Brian37

Fuck gender roles. Is there such a term as "Manimists",?

How about let the individual  decide what they want to do in life, and how about we, both women and men, agree to consent?

I think men who condemn other men for being emotional or financial supported by women are assholes too.

Evolution is a range, and evolution does not care about roles, just what works and since biological life has always been diverse, lets just agree between sexes that we are a range and also individuals.

I hate "be a man" and " a women's role" fuck that shit.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers." Obama
Poetry By Brian37 Like my poetry on Facebook Under BrianJames Rational Poet and also at twitter under Brianrrs37

Nonsensei

Quote from: "Plu"I'm just kinda confused that the group that aims to make the genders equal would name themselves after one of the two. I get the original idea, but it sounds really silly today.


This is also my primary problem with the word. Both genders are effected by discrimination. To name the movement that is supposed to combat that problem after only one gender implies that by focusing only on female issues the goal of eliminating gender discrimination will be achieved.
And on the wings of a dream so far beyond reality
All alone in desperation now the time has come
Lost inside you\'ll never find, lost within my own mind
Day after day this misery must go on

Solitary

I have found that most so-called men like jocks are assholes, and can't understand why so many women are attracted to them. For three years I watched my two boys, cleaned the house, washed dishes, cooked the meals---I still do---while my wife was the bread winner. I couldn't believe how much flack I got from my father-in-law and other men. My wife started to resent it too, and still does, because she wasn't with the kids for three years. I liked doing that better than working heavy construction work or any other job I've had. If you saw me when I was younger I was in no way looking feminine---accept that I looked like a Greek god.  :shock:  :lol:  Solitary

There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

FrankDK

> I don't believe in God, but I'm not an atheist.

Yes, you are.  Sorry.

> I don't want to be associated with those strident God-haters.

You may not wish to be known as an atheist, and I can understand that, since Christians have so thoroughly demonized the term.  But the definition of "atheist" is "a person who does not believe in a god or gods."

That's a bit like saying, "I have a Y chromosome and all other male characteristics, but I'm not a man because some people think all men are women-haters."

Frank

Nonsensei

Quote from: "Solitary"I have found that most so-called men like jocks are assholes, and can't understand why so many women are attracted to them.

Human sexuality has virtually nothing to do with our current societal values.
And on the wings of a dream so far beyond reality
All alone in desperation now the time has come
Lost inside you\'ll never find, lost within my own mind
Day after day this misery must go on

hillbillyatheist

Quote from: "La Dolce Vita"feminism is about so much more, to name two other key points: It's opposition to patriarchy and the focus on feminizing society. I'll grant you that at least the first is a natural conclusion from egaliterianism as well though.

LOL by that definition, I'm NOT one.

I don't want to be neutered or feminized. I'm all for equal rights but I'm still a guy. :lol:

[youtube:2n5he2vm]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yQ9a-hJVy0[/youtube:2n5he2vm]
like my posts and thoughts? then check out my new blog. you can subscribe via email too, so that when its updated, you\'ll get an email, letting you know.

just click here

.

hillbillyatheist

oh and just because I know some folks wont get it, the above post is tongue in cheek. So hold the tomatoes. :lol:

Here's my take. people should just be themselves, whatever that may be. I don't think people should be what they're not. if you're feminin, fine, if your masculine, fine, nothing wrong with either.
like my posts and thoughts? then check out my new blog. you can subscribe via email too, so that when its updated, you\'ll get an email, letting you know.

just click here

.

Jason Harvestdancer

I've often said, "because I believe in equality, I am not a feminist."

The problem is that those who call themselves feminists refuse to define themselves.  And when I say that, I mean they refuse to confront the extremists of the movement.  The response is too often NAFALT (not all feminists are like that) when an example of an extremist is brought up.

NAFALT is even more lame than No True Scotsman.  At least with No True Scotsman the person using that fallacy is trying to define the group as standing for something.  NAFALT is trying to have it both ways, defined both as the reasonable members that would be included if the feminist were to use No True Scotsman and also the unreasonable members.

Until feminists confront their own extremists, either to embrace them or to reject them, then it should be hard for anyone to tall oneself a feminist at all.
White privilege is being a lifelong racist, then being sent to the White House twice because your running mate is a minority.<br /><br />No Biden, no KKK, no Fascist USA!

stromboli

Back in my college years feminism was the hot topic. I have consistently been pro-feminist on most issues, but don't consider myself a feminist. Honestly it is not an issue I've really spent time on. My opinions have mostly been based on the right/wrong of an issue, not the political aspects of it.

Shiranu

Quote from: "Smartmarzipan"
Quote from: "hillbillyatheist"though I feel more comfortable with the label atheist, than feminist because I think atheism does describe quite nicely how I feel about gods, whereas feminist doesn't because its women focused, and I am people focused. Egalitarian just sounds better to me. though I'll say again I know based on how many feminists use the term and see it, I fit the bill.

What is wrong with being women-focused, though?

We have gay rights movements which are focused on gay people.

We have minority movements focused on minorities.

We have child advocacy groups focused on children.

What is so wrong about a feminist movement focused on the specific problems of women?

I find it strange that I really only encounter this "I'm about people" attitude when talking about feminism.

This.

The reason there is a movement focused on specific problems of women is that WOMEN HAVE FAR MORE SPECIFIC PROBLEMS IN THE WORLD THEN MEN.

Few people said during the civil rights movement, "Well, whites have it bad too! Why don't you support whites as well?"

Few people say, "Well, straight people have problems too! Why don't you support straights as well?"

Just because you support a group that has very obvious problems does not mean you therefor are against the opposite group. It's not a competition between men and women; feminism isn't some sports game where if you support women you therefor have to oppose the rival team, men.
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

hillbillyatheist

Quote from: "Smartmarzipan"
Quote from: "hillbillyatheist"though I feel more comfortable with the label atheist, than feminist because I think atheism does describe quite nicely how I feel about gods, whereas feminist doesn't because its women focused, and I am people focused. Egalitarian just sounds better to me. though I'll say again I know based on how many feminists use the term and see it, I fit the bill.

What is wrong with being women-focused, though?

We have gay rights movements which are focused on gay people.

We have minority movements focused on minorities.

We have child advocacy groups focused on children.

What is so wrong about a feminist movement focused on the specific problems of women?

I find it strange that I really only encounter this "I'm about people" attitude when talking about feminism.
speaking for me, I would prefer all these different groups join under one banner. united we stand, divided we fall. That said, I recognize that each group will have specific needs that only apply to them. (abortions for women, head start for kids, etc) So nothing wrong with some people choosing to focus on that. but then the same could be said of mens rights groups which some people seem to shit on as all being sexist even when they have good points too when bringing up specific male issues like how boys are falling behind girls in school, and college right now.

So in short if you want to focus more on specific issues women need, thats fine with me and makes sense, but its not my focus. not that I dont suport it and indeed will not vote for any sexist teabagger piece of shit.

we're ultimately on the same side, I think.
like my posts and thoughts? then check out my new blog. you can subscribe via email too, so that when its updated, you\'ll get an email, letting you know.

just click here

.

surly74

Quote from: "Smartmarzipan"What is wrong with being women-focused, though?

as long as it's ok for me to be men focused.

QuoteWe have gay rights movements which are focused on gay people.

We have minority movements focused on minorities.

We have child advocacy groups focused on children.

What is so wrong about a feminist movement focused on the specific problems of women?

I find it strange that I really only encounter this "I'm about people" attitude when talking about feminism.

gay women don't have the same rights as straight women. gay men don't have the same rights as straight men. keeping the conversation to developed countries and the US in a truly equal capacity, where are women discriminated against for being women? I said developed countries because I do agree there are parts of the world women are treated poorly along with a whole host of issues that simple feminism isn't going to fix.

children's groups are to protect children because they can't speak for themselves. are you comparing women to children? children can't be elected to office.
God bless those Pagans
--
Homer Simpson

Plu

QuoteWhat is so wrong about a feminist movement focused on the specific problems of women?

It's hard to really put the feeling to words and this is probably going to sound really bad, but it's late, so yeah. Take from it what you will. What it comes down to me is that by focusing on the "specific problems of women" you keep trying to seperate "male" and "female" things.

Feminism is often  about "women should be able to do what men can do".

And that's bull.

Anyone should be able to do what they want, and gender stereotypes can go fuck themselves. Too often do you hear people claim "women should be able to be firemen". Hardly ever do you hear people say "Men should be able to be daycare leaders".

By trying to push women into male roles we won't get rid of any gender barriers. In trying to "push women up to the level men" we pretend that one is better than the other. That's bull. There's a pointless gender divide, and the solution isn't to make women be accepted in male roles.

The solution is to make people accepted in all roles. For every woman that wants to be a fireman, there's a guy who wants to stay home and knit sweaters. With the other groups you mentioned (like gays, minorities, etc) there is a clear case of "group X can do what they want and group Y cannot"

That divide does not exist with gender stereotypes. Each group has a bunch of things society feels they can and cannot do. Pushing one group into the other, but not the other way around, will not end the problem. We have to deal with the general problem of people thinking there's things that someone of a certain gender shouldn't do in general.

I'd like for women to be able to do a man's job and not get stares. But I'd also like for a guy to be able to say he likes knitting sweaters and not instantly be labeled "gay". I don't want women to be equal to men. I want people to be equal to people. And for people to be able to do what they enjoy without being judged or scrutinized for them.

hillbillyatheist

Quote from: "Jason_Harvestdancer"I've often said, "because I believe in equality, I am not a feminist."

The problem is that those who call themselves feminists refuse to define themselves.  And when I say that, I mean they refuse to confront the extremists of the movement.  The response is too often NAFALT (not all feminists are like that) when an example of an extremist is brought up.

NAFALT is even more lame than No True Scotsman.  At least with No True Scotsman the person using that fallacy is trying to define the group as standing for something.  NAFALT is trying to have it both ways, defined both as the reasonable members that would be included if the feminist were to use No True Scotsman and also the unreasonable members.

Until feminists confront their own extremists, either to embrace them or to reject them, then it should be hard for anyone to tall oneself a feminist at all.


this is true. I remember in college people celebrating feminists who thought all sex was rape, ads with sexy women are evil, men who like sexy women are evil, etc and seemed more about how men suck, than legit issues like right to control reproductive organs, oppression of women in the middle east, sexual harassment in the workplace, lower pay, etc.

this makes many otherwise feminists recoil and say "I ain't part of that shit" you wonder why many feminists don't take the label, well this is it.
like my posts and thoughts? then check out my new blog. you can subscribe via email too, so that when its updated, you\'ll get an email, letting you know.

just click here

.