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Catholic Church "Miracles"

Started by Paolo, December 07, 2020, 12:58:43 PM

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SGOS

The question is interesting academically, at least to some.  Was there a kind of Jesus guy that the New testament was based on? It's something both atheists and Christians can toss around without fear of being proven wrong, and I do appreciate the rigorous research that goes into the problem, because without that rigorous devotion we can never arrive at the point where we realize that no one on Earth knows the answer.  That realization seems vital to me, whereas believing one knows the answer means nothing.

I generally stay away from the argument, because it does nothing to support the authenticity of the Bible or to undermine it.  My question that led me to my atheism has been concerned with one thing only, the only thing relevant to me when I was a child to the present day. Is God or the Jesus/god in the Bible real?  This idea that he is based on some itinerant street preacher is irrelevant.  I've met these types of preachers on city streets.  Most of them are crazy.  At best they are hopelessly lost while barking to the passing crowd.  However, the actual Bible Jesus would be of the highest interest to me if he were real.

Mike Cl

Quote from: SGOS on February 14, 2021, 11:00:55 AM
The question is interesting academically, at least to some.  Was there a kind of Jesus guy that the New testament was based on? It's something both atheists and Christians can toss around without fear of being proven wrong, and I do appreciate the rigorous research that goes into the problem, because without that rigorous devotion we can never arrive at the point where we realize that no one on Earth knows the answer.  That realization seems vital to me, whereas believing one knows the answer means nothing.

I generally stay away from the argument, because it does nothing to support the authenticity of the Bible or to undermine it.  My question that led me to my atheism has been concerned with one thing only, the only thing relevant to me when I was a child to the present day. Is God or the Jesus/god in the Bible real?  This idea that he is based on some itinerant street preacher is irrelevant.  I've met these types of preachers on city streets.  Most of them are crazy.  At best they are hopelessly lost while barking to the passing crowd.  However, the actual Bible Jesus would be of the highest interest to me if he were real.
The last sentence is why I put so much energy and time into trying to figure out the answer.  And I found an answer.  I don't believe I am right, but I think I am.  I put no stock in 'believing' anything.  I try to use reason and critical thinking in arriving at my answer(s).  And I use the historical method I was taught in college.  My senior thesis taught me quite a bit about the proper historical method and how to use it.  I studied the Donner party, with a focus on Keesberg, the 'cannibal' of the party.  This is the party that was stranded in the snow attempting to go from Reno to Sacramento using a short cut recommended to them by Kit Carson.  Anyway, 3/4 'rescue' parties (actually, salvage parties looking for the Donner's gold) from Sac. were sent out.  The last one found Keesberg; the party took him down to Sac. and labeled him a cannibal.  He took them to court in Sac. and won his case--he was awarded an entire dollar, but he did win.  The evidence is scant on cannibalism, and no evidence exists to suggest he killed anybody to eat them.  He is still considered a cannibal to this day, but not based on any evidence, just beliefs.

There very well may have been a wandering preacher by the name of Jesus.  Jesus was a very, very popular name in those days in this area of the world.  The name means 'savior' and the Jews of that time and place were desperate for one.  A group called the wandering cynics were quite common in those days as well, and acted quite a bit like Jesus was supposed.  They owned nothing and relied solely   on the kindness and handouts of those he preached to.  And their message was quite a bit like what Jesus was supposed to be preaching.  The Gospel of Thomas (known about for centuries, but first found in tact in 1945) is thought to be made up of what the wandering cynics taught.  This collections of sayings was thought destroyed by the early chruch fathers (propagandists par-excellent) chose what they wanted Jesus to say and then destroyed the documents.  It is so much easier to have Jesus say what they wanted if they could (and they did) every element of what this 'Jesus' said, where he lived and who he grew up with and then what he did.  Manufacturing a biography is so much easier when one can make any and all claims they want.

The singular element  that cinched it for me was the 'argument from silence'.  This is a silence that screams!  There is not a single witness, and not even the man himself or his followers at the time (they were invented as well) wrote anything about this supposed man.  That is evidence of the highest sort, in my eyes.  Jesus was invented, not out of whole cloth, but using models that were common in that place and age.  It seems they picked from the dying/rising from the dead hero/god that was popular then--there a dozens of them.  And from groups like the wandering cynics, which were common then.  It was common for the christians of that time and place to take over pagan holidays and sites to help the common person to be more accepting of their pitch. 

There is more I could state, but you get the idea.  Taken as a whole, this, for me, is very strong proof that Jesus, as portrayed by christians did not exist and was created by the early church.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Paolo

#287
Quote from: Mike Cl on February 14, 2021, 09:16:36 AM
I clearly demonstrated that Josephus IS NOT a witness, for he did not write anything about your favorite hero.  Two sections of his writings are shown to have had material not written by him inserted into his writings and was supposed to be made to look like he wrote it.  But, apparently you don't know how to read---nor think.  You clearly act like a theist who pretends to be an atheist.

Maybe because English is my second language, I am not able to follow what you're saying? It's a possibility, I guess. I am Latino, don't you forget that. ;)
Oh noes...I think I’m dead....

Mike Cl

Quote from: Paolo on February 14, 2021, 12:50:16 PM
Maybe because English is my second language, I am not able to follow what you're saying? It's a possibility, I guess. I am Latino, don't you forget that. ;)
Two languages--that is a good thing.  I have one--wish I could speak more, but too lazy at this point in my life to acquire another.  I do admire those who can speak and write more than one language. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

SGOS

Quote from: Mike Cl on February 14, 2021, 12:16:46 PM
The last sentence is why I put so much energy and time into trying to figure out the answer.  And I found an answer.  I don't believe I am right, but I think I am.  I put no stock in 'believing' anything. 
I get that, Mike. I know you well enough to understand, and I think the same for myself.  Skeptics don't lay claim to the gift of omniscience as theists do.  We are mortal and not privy to absolute truth.  And I agree that Jesus is too similar to the myths existing of that era to be considered much more than a reflection of the ignorance and gullibility of the time. I think it even likely that a mortal Jesus existed back then, but never walked on water or turned it into wine, or did anything at all as written in the Bible.

Paolo

#290
Quote from: Mike Cl on February 14, 2021, 01:03:42 PM
Two languages--that is a good thing.  I have one--wish I could speak more, but too lazy at this point in my life to acquire another.  I do admire those who can speak and write more than one language.

Thank you, Mike. I am especially proud of my English "proficiency" since it was 90% self-taught.
Oh noes...I think I’m dead....

drunkenshoe

#291
Paolo. You want an exercise in fact vs fiction? How does history sound?

Read Umberto Eco's 'The name of The Rose'. DO NOT read anything about the book. This is very important for this to work. Stay away from the movie. Read the book. Think about it. Think about the story it is telling. Who is telling of what story happened when?

Then make a short research on the book and read about how the novel was constructed.

This could be a way of trying to reverse the damage done by the Da Vinci Code culture a bit.
"science is not about building a body of known 'facts'. ıt is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting them to a reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever makes us feel good." - tp

aitm

Meh, frankly it doesn’t matter to me
Hell they could find all the proof they want but it in no way adds a level of supernatural to his persona. The babble is filled with non sensical idiocy that defies simple common sense for a “god” to be so lame and incompetent.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Paolo

Quote from: drunkenshoe on February 15, 2021, 05:00:32 AM
Paolo. You want an exercise in fact vs fiction? How does history sound?

Read Umberto Eco's 'The name of The Rose'. DO NOT read anything about the book. This is very important for this to work. Stay away from the movie. Read the book. Think about it. Think about the story it is telling. Who is telling of what story happened when?

Then make a short research on the book and read about how the novel was constructed.

This could be a way of trying to reverse the damage done by the Da Vinci Code culture a bit.

Thanks for the reading suggestion, drunkenshoe.
Oh noes...I think I’m dead....

Paolo

Hey guys, I have another question: is it normal and/or consistent for an atheist to get interested in Christian apologetics books?
Oh noes...I think I’m dead....

SGOS

For me Christian apologetics are very interesting, but only as an exercise in critical thinking and basic logic, and at that, none of it really tests the depths of anyone's intellectual capabilities.  I was able to spot that junk when I was less than ten, and at a time where I considered myself a good Christian.

I also like to listen carefully to the big name Christian debaters when they are performing, just to pick apart their logic.  I am also pretty good at recognizing how the dummies would buy their crap, because I think the best of the good theist debaters have pretty good skills with tailoring logical fallacies into their arguments.  Good Christian debaters do not shy away from fallacy.  They are quite creative at presenting them in such a way to obscure the failures.  They are like stage magicians, directing the attention of the audience away from what is really happening.

The odd thing is that the only reason to pay any attention to these guys, is because they even bother to do it.  If they just stayed quiet, no one would even notice the snake oil.

aitm

Quote from: Paolo on February 16, 2021, 01:59:40 AM
Hey guys, I have another question: is it normal and/or consistent for an atheist to get interested in Christian apologetics books?
As much as I would consider reading Quack-anon theories.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Mike Cl

Quote from: Paolo on February 16, 2021, 01:59:40 AM
Hey guys, I have another question: is it normal and/or consistent for an atheist to get interested in Christian apologetics books?
First of all, there is no 'normal' for an atheist.  As an example, let's look at the word 'unique'--it means one of a kind, not another one like it.  So, something is either unique or not.  An object cannot be 'more', 'the most', 'kind of', unique.  Either it is or it isn't.  Period.  Atheist is like that.  It means non-believe in any and all gods.  Period.  It is not a 'belief system'.  Nothing else comes with that label.  Either one is a theist, who believes in at least one god or supernatural being, or an a-theist, or one who believes in no gods.  Atheists are not anti-theists.  We are not against theism; we don't believe in any gods--but we are not against those who do believe in gods.  That is not part of the definition.  Atheists are alike in only one thing--non-belief in god(s).   Therefore, there is no 'normal and/or consistent' way for an atheist to think or act. 

At one time, I was very interested in Christian apologetics books and articles.  I read quite a few of them and bits and pieces of a bunch more.  I still do, at times.  I did a little 'deep diving' into christian apologetics when I did a study of the bible and jesus.  But just because I did, doesn't mean all atheists would (or wouldn't).  It is akin to my loving baseball and ice cream.  Many people are bored silly by baseball and some don't like ice cream.  If you want to read that type of material, go for it.  If not, then don't.  It's that easy.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Unbeliever

I seem to recall that Flavius Josephus mentioned at least seven guys named Jesus in his works. I wonder, which was the God?
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Paolo

#299
Quote from: aitm on February 16, 2021, 07:51:02 AM
As much as I would consider reading Quack-anon theories.

But if you know nothing about something, or haven't read anything about it (i.e., educated yourself), how can you criticize it or say it's invalid?

Oh noes...I think I’m dead....