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Catholic Church "Miracles"

Started by Paolo, December 07, 2020, 12:58:43 PM

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drunkenshoe

#195
Quote from: SGOS on January 25, 2021, 11:29:15 AM
... Using Shoe's lessons in anthropology, the success of these religions tell us more about the people who covet them than they do about actual truth.

That's exactly what that Shoe person means, sir.  :wineglass:
"science is not about building a body of known 'facts'. ıt is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting them to a reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever makes us feel good." - tp

PickelledEggs

this is where my discord bot would have came in handy. I would be able to do "!noevidence" and my Hitchbot would say "That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

Mike Cl

Well, Paolo, you are one lively conversationalist, aren't you.  I will assume your silence indicates you have no real evidence for the historicity of your favorite god/man, Jesus H. Christ.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

SGOS


Paolo

Quote from: Mike Cl on February 02, 2021, 12:52:17 PM
Well, Paolo, you are one lively conversationalist, aren't you.  I will assume your silence indicates you have no real evidence for the historicity of your favorite god/man, Jesus H. Christ.

Calm down, pal. I have just read your two posts. Now I have to think about them, before giving my reply.
Oh noes...I think I’m dead....

Mike Cl

Okay, Paolo, I await with baited breath.................
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Mike Cl

My bad--that should be bated, not 'baited'.  I'm not fishing here......................well, maybe, sort of.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Paolo

#202
Quote from: Mike Cl on January 25, 2021, 10:00:54 AM
When I first started my personal search for the historical Jesus, I was what is called an agnostic on the subject.  I did not know there was enough evidence for either side--so I began looking and studying.  Richard Carrier is the one that presents what is closest to what I think.  I am now persuaded with the lack of evidence is actually evidence of non-existence, thought.  Jesus is said to have existed in the 1st cent.  What surprised me was the number of writers/historians that were alive and writing in that time frame.  (I remember reading that a recent researcher wrote a book on that subject and came up with at least 120 authors writing in that time.)  Not one mentioned Jesus.  Not ONE!

That is just false. There are mentions of Jesus by secular and non-Christian writers. To name just a few: Josephus, Lucian, Mara bar-Serapion, Pliny, Seutonius, Tacitus, The Talmud authors, Thallus. Want to discuss any of those in particular?

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 25, 2021, 10:00:54 AMJesus is claimed to be, and is widely believed, to be the son of god; he is the scapegoat for all of human sins.  The redeemer!  The producer of miracles or all sorts.  Yet not one author tells of any of his life nor deeds.  That simply cannot be for the pivotal, singular point in the history of mankind.  There must be evidence of his existence all over the place!  God literally moved heaven and earth to make his point and present his son.  But, no, no evidence.

But what sort of evidence do you want? 

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 25, 2021, 10:00:54 AMBible scholars.  Who are they?  Mostly seminary trained, whose goal is the continue the myth.  Why?--money.  There is a huge profit, both wealth and power wise.  It's like claiming all flat-earth scholars agree the earth is flat.  So what?  I don't trust that bible scholars will give me the truth--only the truth as they see it or want it to be.  Carrier, for my money, is the closest we have come to independent scholarly work--he claims to have no dog in this fight, and simply wanted to know the facts.

You miss the point that many SECULAR historians and of ALL RELIGIOUS PERSUASIONS, from hindus to atheists, think that there is enough evidence to believe in a historical Jesus-- or at least as much evidence for it as for other historical figures whose existence we normally take for granted. But more on that later.

And what makes you think Carrier, who is an outspoken atheist, is truly 'neutral'?

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 25, 2021, 10:00:54 AMAnother element that smacks of no real Jesus;  the fact that his life and story occurred on one tiny spot on earth.  And not even in the largest population center at that time.  There were many mythical gods swirling around in that area of the world at that time, as well.  The same holds true for the bible.  If the bible were found in all areas of the world, that one fact would give me serious pause and I would probably be a believer.  I mean if one could go to Asia or South America, or Sweden, or Russia, or the Pacific Islands, or New Zealand and find bible dating from the same time frame, that would seem to be proof that the bible would be true.  Or if it was shown that Jesus visited those same areas, that would be further proof of his existence.  But that is not even close to being true.  One tiny area of the world??? For me it is clear this is the folklore of one small group of people; and it is clear this particular myth was created from an amalgam of the other myths swirling around in that area at that time.

Okay. Do you have any evidence for your copycat thesis? 

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 25, 2021, 10:00:54 AMI could go on, Paolo, but I will await your response.

That's OK! I will be working on the second reply, which will probably be a bit longer, and a lot more complex!
Oh noes...I think I’m dead....

Paolo

Quote from: Mike Cl on February 02, 2021, 01:53:12 PM
My bad--that should be bated, not 'baited'.  I'm not fishing here......................well, maybe, sort of.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qGHiHHTkpA
Oh noes...I think I’m dead....

Mike Cl

Paolo, if you want to spend the time, you can sift thru my posts and find a large number of posts that have dealt with this issue before.  But I will tackle your list one at a time.  The list of witnesses of Jesus you provided did not write anything while Jesus was alive.  Nor did Jesus ever write anything, nor did his 'disciples' nor anybody else during his lifetime.  For example, Philo, who was a prolific writer and alive from 20 bce to 50 ce, and who frequently traveled from Alexandria and Jerusalem, would have mentioned him, at least a little.  Not a whisper.

Josephus:

Jesus in Josephus
BY RICHARD CARRIER ON DECEMBER 21, 2012147 COMMENTS
Now that the world has ended, my peer reviewed article on Josephus just came out: “Origen, Eusebius, and the Accidental Interpolation in Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 20.200” in the Journal of Early Christian Studies 
(vol. 20, no. 4, Winter 2012), 
pp. 489-514.

The official description is:

Analysis of the evidence from the works of Origen, Eusebius, and Hegesippus concludes that the reference to “Christ” in Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 20.200 is probably an accidental interpolation or scribal emendation and that the passage was never originally about Christ or Christians. It referred not to James the brother of Jesus Christ, but probably to James the brother of the Jewish high priest Jesus ben Damneus.

My proof of that is pretty conclusive. But this article also summarizes a sufficient case to reject the Testimonium Flavianum as well (the other, longer reference to Jesus in Josephus), in that case as a deliberate fabrication (see note 1, pp. 489-90, and discussion of the Arabic quotation on pp. 493-94). And I cite the leading scholarship on both. So it’s really a complete article on both references to Jesus in Josephus.

Further evidence that the longer reference is a Christian fabrication lies in an article I didn’t cite, however, but that is nevertheless required reading on the matter: G.J. Goldberg, “The Coincidences of the Testimonium of Josephus and the Emmaus Narrative of Luke,” in the Journal for the Study of the Pseudepigrapha (vol. 13, 1995), pp. 59-77. Goldberg demonstrates nineteen unique correspondences between Luke’s Emmaus account and the Testimonium Flavianum, all nineteen in exactly the same order (with some order and word variations only within each item). There are some narrative differences (which are expected due to the contexts being different and as a result of common kinds of authorial embellishment), and there is a twentieth correspondence out of order (identifying Jesus as “the Christ”). But otherwise, the coincidences here are very improbable on any other hypothesis than dependence.

Goldberg also shows that the Testimonium contains vocabulary and phrasing that is particularly Christian (indeed, Lukan) and un-Josephan. He concludes that this means either a Christian wrote it or Josephus slavishly copied a Christian source, and contrary to what Goldberg concludes, the latter is wholly implausible (Josephus would treat such a source more critically, creatively, and informedly).

Remember, Josephus was born after Jesus died, so he could not be considered a contemporary. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Mike Cl

Lucian,
He lived from 125-180.  Clearly not a contemporary. 

Lucian is not an independent witness to Jesus. Lucian of Samosata (c.125-180 CE), was a Greek satirist best known for his dialogues (Dialogues of the Gods, Dialogues of the Dead, The Sale of Lives) ridiculing Greek mythology and philosophy; he also authored a work entitled True History. McDowell cites the following statement by Lucian written around 170 CE:

... the man who was crucified in Palestine because he introduced this new cult into the world.... Furthermore, their first lawgiver persuaded them that they were all brothers one of another after they have transgressed once for all by denying the Greek gods and by worshipping that crucified sophist himself and living under his laws.[144]

In a previous version of this essay, quoting Michael Grant, I questioned whether Lucian was concerned with historical accuracy.[145] I misinterpreted Grant; elsewhere Grant makes it clear that Lucian was concerned with historical accuracy. According to Grant, Lucian felt it important to separate instruction from entertainment.[146] Grant notes that Lucian felt a historian should be "stateless;" in other words, Lucian thought the historian should try to remain impartial when recording events concerning the historian's own nation.[147] Moreover, Lucian "denounced fraudulent biography" and said that "it was the sole duty of the historian to ... say exactly how things happened."[148]

Nevertheless, given that Lucian's statement was written near the end of the second century, it seems rather unlikely that he had independent sources of information concerning the historicity of Jesus. Lucian may have relied upon Christian sources, common knowledge, or even an earlier pagan reference (e.g., Tacitus); since Lucian does not specify his sources, we will never know. Just as is the case with Tacitus, it is quite plausible that Lucian would have simply accepted the Christian claim that their founder had been crucified. There is simply no evidence that Lucian ever doubted the historicity of Jesus. Therefore, Lucian's concern for historical accuracy is not even relevant as Lucian would have had no motive for investigating the matter.[149]

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Mike Cl

Mara Bar-Serapion

Mara Bar-Serapion was a Syrian, but other than that nothing is known of his life. All we possess today are fragments of a letter he was writing to his son from prison, one of which says the following:

“What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samos gain from burying Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise king? It was just after that that their kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the Jews, ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the teaching of Plato. Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise king die for good; he lived on in the teaching which he had given.”

The second and third criteria both come into play here. First, it should be noted that the dating of this letter is very uncertain. Even the earliest estimates place it around 70 CE, over 40 years after Jesus’ death, while some historians have dated it well into the third century. Secondly, and far more importantly, the letter does not even mention Jesus by name â€" it only refers to a “wise king”, and does not mention any specific deeds or sayings of this individual. It could be referring to any of the messianic pretenders of the first century, or someone else entirely unknown to us. There is no way to tell. In fact, it seems less likely that Bar-Serapion meant Jesus than any other would-be messiah, since Jesus was killed by the Romans, not by the Jews. The fact that he does not even name this “wise king”, whereas he does name Socrates and Pythagoras, suggests that Bar-Serapion knew almost nothing about him. Therefore, as confirmation of the historicity of Jesus, his testimony is without merit.

It further supports this argument to note that Bar-Serapion is sloppy and careless with other historical details in this passage. Pythagoras, for example, apparently died in southern Italy, not Samos; the exact location and manner of his death vary depending on the telling (in Croton by political adversaries or in Metapontium by hunger strike), but no historical account puts his death in Samos, nor is there any record of a significant natural disaster there that might correspond to what Bar-Serapion mentions. Also, Socrates was executed several decades after the Great Plague of Athens, which seems to be what this passage is alluding to, obviously making it impossible that the plague could somehow have been divine retribution. Bar-Serapion’s inability to get known historical details right makes him far less trustworthy when it comes to disputed ones. (Thanks to EvanT for pointing this out.)

And again, not a contemporary of Jesus.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Mike Cl

The Jewish Talmud

A compendium of Jewish oral law and rabbinical commentary still used by Orthodox Jews today to complement the Torah, the Talmud was entirely oral until it was codified and written down somewhere around 200 CE. It contains a few scattered references to Jesus, one of which is reproduced below:

“On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, ‘He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Anyone who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.’ But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover.”

The problem with the Talmud is this â€" it is not an objective history, but a polemic. It is obvious that the above verse is not a description of something that actually happened; rather, it is a Jewish retort to the New Testament accusation that the trial and execution of Jesus took place secretly and in haste. Theological biases render historical accounts unreliable, and this is just as true for the Jews who were answering Christian accusations as for the Christians who were making them. By the time the Talmud was compiled, centuries after Jesus’ alleged death and after the Jewish War which caused vast destruction in Jerusalem and scattered the Jewish people to the winds, third-century rabbis would have been in no position to be able to refute the very existence of Jesus (not to mention that they also lacked the exegetical techniques that would have allowed them to even suspect such a possibility). It would have been much easier to grant his existence and then slant the stories about him to favor their side of the argument rather than the Christians’, and this is exactly what happened.

Furthermore, the Talmud is without value as a historical account because it dramatically contradicts the Christian version of events, and even contradicts itself in numerous places, when speaking about Jesus. Note that the above verse says he was hanged, not crucified. The same chapter says Jesus had just five disciples, and gives them completely different names than the Bible does: Matthai, Nakai, Nezer, Buni and Todah (source â€" thanks to EvanT for pointing this out).

There are other Talmudic accounts that say Jesus died by stoning, not at Calvary, but at Lydda, and not by the Romans, but by the Jews. Some verses say he was the son of a Roman soldier, others say he was a magician. One mention of Jesus places his life at the time of the Maccabean kings, around 100 BCE, while another says his parents were contemporaries of a second-century rabbi. Such fragmented and inconsistent accounts show that the Talmud cannot possibly be accurate history; if it were describing true events, it would be impossible for it to contradict itself. This, combined with its late writing date, makes it even weaker than the other accounts as evidence of Jesus’ existence.

And again, not a contemporary source.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Mike Cl

Thallus

The true name of the historian we now call Thallus is in fact not known. Nothing written by Thallus has survived to this day; the only reason we know anything about him is that he is mentioned in the writings of others. In the ninth century CE, a Christian named George Syncellus quoted an early third-century Christian named Julius Africanus, who in turn referenced the work of another man who wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean sometime between 50 and 100 CE. The true name of this man is unclear, as the manuscript is damaged and a letter is missing, but “Thallus” seems to be the most likely spelling. Neither any of his original works nor any of the original works of Africanus survive, and a fragment of third-hand hearsay stretching across eight centuries is about as weak and uncompelling as any evidence could possibly be. Nevertheless, if Syncellus and in turn Africanus are to be believed, Thallus’ history mentioned the three-hour darkness at the time of Jesus’ crucifixion. (No direct quotes from Thallus are known.)

As previously stated, this evidence is so ridiculously weak and circumstantial that it could be justifiably dismissed without going any farther. Third-hand hearsay is not compelling proof of a worldwide darkness that everyone should have noticed. Furthermore, Thallus himself did not even necessarily say it was anything out of the ordinary. Syncellus quotes Africanus as saying this:

“Thallus, in the third book of his histories, explains away the darkness as an eclipse of the sun â€" unreasonably, as it seems to me.”

Passover is around a full moon, and it is physically impossible for a solar eclipse to occur during a full moon, much less to last for three hours, so Africanus would be right if that was what Thallus said â€" but we do not know what Thallus said; he is not quoted directly. Astronomers have calculated that a solar eclipse did occur in November of 29 CE. Is it not possible that Thallus was recording this, nothing more, and that the link to the gospel story was made by Africanus who mistakenly thought it was an attempt to explain away a mysterious three-hour darkness? And of course, this is assuming that Africanus accurately referenced Thallus, and that Syncellus accurately referenced both of them. None of the links in this long chain of assumptions can be substantiated, and thus there is no good reason to accept Thallus as any corroboration of the gospel account.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Mike Cl

Suetonius

Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus was a Roman biographer and historian whose most famous work is titled The Lives of the Twelve Caesars, a biography of twelve Roman emperors livened up with gossip and stories of scandal. Written about 120 CE, the book contains one passage apologists frequently cite:

“Because the Jews of Rome caused continous disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, [Claudius] expelled them from the city.”

As historical evidence for the existence of Jesus, this verse is very weak. A number of anomalies immediately crop up upon reading it. One is that Jesus’ name is seemingly misspelled. But on further examination, this may not be a misspelling at all. “Chrestus” does not mean “Christ” (that would have been “Christus”) â€" rather, “Chrestus” was a perfectly valid Latin name in its own right, and a very common one as well. It may well be that this passage is referring to some unknown Jewish agitator, perhaps another messianic pretender such as the ones Josephus describes. Furthermore, Claudius was the Roman emperor from 41 to 54 CE. There is no indication historically that Christianity had spread to Rome by this time, or that it was powerful enough to have caused a revolt. Note, too, that the passage says it was not Christians who were causing disturbances, but Jews â€" and Suetonius does write about Christians elsewhere in his works, so he plainly knew the difference.

Also, Claudius’ decree is mentioned in the Bible, in Acts (18:1-2). Backing up Suetonius’ account, Acts describes it as an expulsion of Jews only. If the emperor had also expelled Christians from Rome, it seems likely that this passage would have mentioned it, since Acts never misses a chance to record persecutions of Christians. But nothing of the kind is described, which makes it even more likely that Claudius’ expulsion was a Roman-Jewish dispute with no connection to Christianity. (Thanks to EvanT for pointing this out.)

Finally, it is worth noting when this passage was written. After Josephus, the chronologically nearest witness to Jesus’ life the apologists have to offer, we now leap to 120 CE. An ambiguous reference to a person who might have been Christianity’s founder, written over seventy years after his supposed death, is hardly compelling evidence for the existence of Jesus.

There is another brief verse in Suetonius that apologists occasionally cite:

“After the great fire at Rome [during Nero’s reign]…. Punishments were also inflicted on the Christians, a sect professing a new and mischievous religious belief.”

Note the second question at the beginning of this essay â€" what did the historian write? This brief passage mentions nothing about the existence of Jesus, and thus is worthless as evidence of his existence. It merely proves that there were Christians in 120 CE, which no one disputes.

Again--not contemporary
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?