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Catholic Church "Miracles"

Started by Paolo, December 07, 2020, 12:58:43 PM

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aitm

Poor baby.....imagine how disappointing it is to spend your life on your knees only to have your most important prayers ignored. But hey, that toast looks like jeebus! Halla fuckin looyah!
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Paolo

Quote from: aitm on December 27, 2020, 09:04:49 PM
Poor baby.....imagine how disappointing it is to spend your life on your knees only to have your most important prayers ignored. But hey, that toast looks like jeebus! Halla fuckin looyah!

Are you schizophrenic?
Oh noes...I think I’m dead....

drunkenshoe

Quote from: Baruch on December 27, 2020, 01:30:32 PM
Turkish Muslim exorcism would be more of a Central Asian Turkish thing, not an Arabic thing.  But I wouldn't count all shamen as pedophiles.

They believe in jinns, Baruch. Remember that? It's exactly the same deal. According to the general belief, they are a different kind of 'species'; non matter, can move anywhere instantly and have their own culture. Some of them are evil, some good. They have families, societies...etc.They have different beliefs, they believe in different things like humans. They also can possess people. Mostly young women.

I've also written something about this regarding sexual abuse and masturbation sessions of young people. If you read about 'jinn encounters', they are all almost from young people and includes sexua acts of some sort. They're heavily oppressed about masturbation for example and this comes out as a jinn temptation, possession. The alarming part is that I also believe that -jinn or demon- a considerable amount of these stories are connected to some sort of abuse young people suffer.

Anyway, but I don't know anything about 'making 3 wishes come true' kind of Hollywood fantasy as a belief. I've never heard of it. I just know, Muslims are very scared of jinns, because they're very powerful and dangerous to their faith. Not some feeble cartoon like characters that can be captured and forced to make wishes.

That idea probably comes from some prehistoric scale ancient understanding of teaching people the consequences of having what they desire just like that I guess. No short cuts kind of warning, lol. Becareful what you wish for and all that stuff. What we desire and what we need are very rarely the same thing after all, human.
"science is not about building a body of known 'facts'. ıt is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting them to a reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever makes us feel good." - tp

drunkenshoe

Quote from: Paolo on December 27, 2020, 02:37:18 PM
So with all the unsubstantiated vitriol against Catholics and Catholicism here, it seems that slander, after the standard mediocre ad hominem attacks of course, is the primary argumentative weapon of mainstream Internet atheism?

How disappointing, I must say!

Ehh...what is the fucking argument here that the main stream atheism (?) failed to answer? What do you offer, what is that you put forward? What's your argument?

What are 'the unsubstantiated vitriol' against catholics and catholicism? The whole history of atrocities or the full protection provided to the pedo priests all around? Forget the annoyed atheist attitude, why anyone in their right mind would even be neutral to Catholicism? Or to any kind of belief and religion for that matter? You thought people would show some affection to Catholics or Catholicism as an exception here? Are you thick?

Ironically, are you aware that in your general attiude, you actually put atheists on some pedestal and expect them to give you some grand answers to 'deep' questions you don't even know how to ask, in a stoic, yet gracefully, divine manner?

What are we? A band of monks appointed to teach people all matters of reality? Are you crazy? If you just want to have musings and casual conversations, act that way. But the moment you attempt to mix mumbo jumbo with reality, esp. science, don't expect people to go 'hmm...yeah...you think so?...mmm...' because we already do that in some way in real life all the time. Here, somebody will likely to make you a chew toy. No, they are not angry or 'evil', they are fucking sick of it. And this is their space.
"science is not about building a body of known 'facts'. ıt is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting them to a reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever makes us feel good." - tp

SGOS

Quote from: drunkenshoe on December 28, 2020, 05:23:38 AM
the moment you attempt to mix mumbo jumbo with reality, esp. science, don't expect people to go 'hmm...yeah...you think so?...mmm...' because we already do that in some way in real life all the time.
Theists and the uncommitted see these as reasonable musings.  But most atheists, the ones that were once indoctrinated anyway, have mused these things to death earlier in our lives.  At some, point we realized they can't be supported through reason, and we understand that further musings always lead to the same "nowhere." Those who have been atheists their entire lives simply skip the beating heads against the wall phase, and ask for evidence.

Eventually, theist's questions become redundant and irrelevant.  But theists or fence sitter wannabes, seem to assume that atheists have never confronted their questions before, like they are bringing something new to the table.  It's not new.  It has been inspected and rejected.  It's not that their answers may be right, but that their questions are wrong.  'hmm...yeah...you think so?...mmm...' is not a valid question, and provides no evidence.

We used to have these kinds of discussions at 3:00 AM in college dorm rooms while smoking pot.  We thought we were being profound and intellectual at the time.  Nothing ever came of it. 


drunkenshoe

#110
Yeah, I agree with you. But just to make it clear, I meant that '...mmm...' as an example of the reaction they seek from atheists in general, on any comment or opinion, not as a questioning line. (You know when in RL we ignore believers like that? after all we don't get to discuss these with people everyday. Here is different.) Honestly, I don't think there is an agenda behind it most of the time either. Some of them really do want to be included in some way and hear some comments and opinions.

Understanding the validity of a questioning line in this context is the whole point itself. That's the threshold, isn't it? That's how you climb out from the daddy in the sky crib. And at the beginning, it is OK to go through all that. But you can't teach that. People have to learn that by themselves. Nobody can open or show some door for anyone to go through. Even if you get that power over someone one in a million chance, you shouldn't. And if you are really into 'questioning' something, anything... there are countless resources you can reach in a moment, books you can pick up. Everything starts with simple curiosity, then scepticism...etc...then you pick up things on the road and by accumulation arrive to a point.

But this common child like attitude of these people, treating atheists like adults in the room makes me uncomfortable. I really don't get what kind of a psyhcology is there behind it. Is it an attempt of reaching, we don't get? I mean, do some people come here because, you know unconsciously they arrive at some crossroads but don't know how to act? What the fuck is it?

"science is not about building a body of known 'facts'. ıt is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting them to a reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever makes us feel good." - tp

Mike Cl

Paolo, I've asked you a couple of questions.  Why are you not answering them????
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

SGOS

Quote from: drunkenshoe on December 28, 2020, 09:32:17 AM
Yeah, I agree with you. But just to make it clear, I meant that '...mmm...' as an example of the reaction they seek from atheists in general, on any comment or opinion, not as a questioning line.
I did understand that. I think it's an attempt to validate their own belief.  For us to concede 'hmm...yeah...you think so?...mmm...' is a validation that if no evidence exists either way, then their belief is as valid as our lack of belief.  This argument from ignorance is widely used in religion in an attempt to fill the vacuum with more vacuum.  The atheist says, "if there is no evidence, no belief is valid  The theist says, "If there is no evidence, my belief is valid."  They think they have us over the barrel, because we are admitting we don't know. I mean they actually think they have kicked our asses in a debate.

To be fair, some theists understand this, some can be made to understand it, but many will never understand it.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on December 28, 2020, 09:32:17 AM
I really don't get what kind of a psyhcology is there behind it. Is it an attempt of reaching, we don't get? I mean, do some people come here because, you know unconsciously they arrive at some crossroads but don't know how to act? What the fuck is it?
Everyone wants to be validated.  Getting it from an atheist or a scientist would be the big prize, but that is seldom forthcoming.  Psychology is probably too complicated to explain all the motivations involved, and with someone as closed or vague as Paolo, it's not even worth trying to understand what he's doing.  I'm pretty sure we make him angry, and he feels justified (rightly or wrongly) in telling us why.

Mike Cl

Paolo is rendered as 'Paul' in english and is also a silver Papal coin.  Add that to the way he has been trying to lay trap after trap with his vague questions; he thinks he is being clever by posing as an atheist while tricking us poor souls.  He also just talks about catholic stuff and not other sects or religions.  I guess he thinks he is earning anti-sin points or something by leading us sinners to the light.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Baruch

Quote from: SGOS on December 28, 2020, 07:44:08 AM
Theists and the uncommitted see these as reasonable musings.  But most atheists, the ones that were once indoctrinated anyway, have mused these things to death earlier in our lives.  At some, point we realized they can't be supported through reason, and we understand that further musings always lead to the same "nowhere." Those who have been atheists their entire lives simply skip the beating heads against the wall phase, and ask for evidence.

Eventually, theist's questions become redundant and irrelevant.  But theists or fence sitter wannabes, seem to assume that atheists have never confronted their questions before, like they are bringing something new to the table.  It's not new.  It has been inspected and rejected.  It's not that their answers may be right, but that their questions are wrong.  'hmm...yeah...you think so?...mmm...' is not a valid question, and provides no evidence.

We used to have these kinds of discussions at 3:00 AM in college dorm rooms while smoking pot.  We thought we were being profound and intellectual at the time.  Nothing ever came of it.

Atheists smoke Pot, theists take LSD ;-)
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Paolo

#115
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 26, 2020, 10:22:40 PMFor you, Paolo what is a theory?  What is the value and place for belief/faith?  What is science for you--and do you think the scientific method has value?

Hi Mike, sorry for the delay. This particular holiday season really has made my personal life a mess, ''time-wise''.

For me, a ''theory'' in the scientific sense is more or less what you described -- a body of facts with an explanation to anchor and unite them. It's the complete opposite of what ''theory'' means in the common sense.

Belief is something all humans have, be they theists or scientists. What varies is how well our ''beliefs'' are justified. Hence Plato's idea of ''true justified belief'' (I personally prefer simply ''justified belief''). ''Faith'', in the modern sense, is a belief without facts to support it. But I think there is some evidence that this is not the same sense which the ancients (who ''invented'' this word) used the term; Protestant Christian apologist J.P. Holding has some interesting ideas about this particular point.

''Science'', as Ludwig Krippahl puts it, is simply a TOOL. A tool for what? Discovering stuff about and studying the ''universe'', or the natural world, as it is. Mind you that there is not objective evidence that the natural/material world even exists outside our minds in the first place -- I believe solipsism has been mentioned in this thread already. It is, to me, the most useful tool yet for gaining knowledge. Some say ''science is a form/method of testing''. To me, it is simply testing. There is no knowledge about anything outside the realm of science, at least not in a practical sense. Does that make me a ''dogmatic scientific materialistic atheist''? Maybe.

Thus, I believe the last question is already answered -- I believe the scientific method is enormously useful, and is by far the most efficient method of studying our external reality. And this is certainly not only due to the technological advances that it has brought to our modern, Western lives. So yes, it definitely has value. A lot.

I hope this makes sense and has answered your questions. 
Oh noes...I think I’m dead....

Mike Cl

Quote from: Paolo on January 05, 2021, 01:09:10 AM
Hi Mike, sorry for the delay. This particular holiday season really has made my personal life a mess, ''time-wise''.

For me, a ''theory'' in the scientific sense is more or less what you described -- a body of facts with an explanation to anchor and unite them. It's the complete opposite of what ''theory'' means in the common sense.

Belief is something all humans have, be they theists or scientists. What varies is how well our ''beliefs'' are justified. Hence Plato's idea of ''true justified belief'' (I personally prefer simply ''justified belief''). ''Faith'', in the modern sense, is a belief without facts to support it. But I think there is some evidence that this is not the same sense which the ancients (who ''invented'' this word) used the term; Protestant Christian apologist J.P. Holding has some interesting ideas about this particular point.

''Science'', as Ludwig Krippahl puts it, is simply a TOOL. A tool for what? Discovering stuff about and studying the ''universe'', or the natural world, as it is. Mind you that there is not objective evidence that the natural/material world even exists outside our minds in the first place -- I believe solipsism has been mentioned in this thread already. It is, to me, the most useful tool yet for gaining knowledge. Some say ''science is a form/method of testing''. To me, it is simply testing. There is no knowledge about anything outside the realm of science, at least not in a practical sense. Does that make me a ''dogmatic scientific materialistic atheist''? Maybe.

Thus, I believe the last question is already answered -- I believe the scientific method is enormously useful, and is by far the most efficient method of studying our external reality. And this is certainly not only due to the technological advances that it has brought to our modern, Western lives. So yes, it definitely has value. A lot.

I hope this makes sense and has answered your questions.

Yes, answered my questions.  Thanks for the post.  I'm not a solipsist.  And I do think the scientific method is the only accurate way to search for knowledge.  I think--and I exist.  But, because of the scientific method, it has been determined that gravity works on this planet.  The scientific process proves it.  I can understand that, as can most everybody that I know does too.  I can't believe gravity to go away or believe something else to make it change.  To change our understanding of gravity one has to use the scientific process. 

This may be semantics, but I don't really 'believe' anything.  Either there are facts to support something or there isn't.  So, rather than saying I believe the sun will rise tomorrow, I say that I think the sun will rise tomorrow.  And I will continue to think that until I have some evidence to demonstrate that it will not.  Belief and faith are simply words/tools to fleece the sheeple. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Baruch

#117
I remembered this from when I was young ...

Miracles by Jefferson Starship (rock song lyric)

If only you believe like I believe, baby (if only you believe like I believe)
We'd get by
If only you believe in miracles (if only you believed in miracles so would i)
If only you believe like I believe, baby (if only you believe like I believe)
We'd get by
If only you believe in miracles (if only you believed in miracles so would i)

This was brought up by search, don't remember it, but it speaks to me today

I Believe In Miracles by Ramones (rock song lyric)

"I used to be on an endless run
Believed in miracles 'cause I'm one
I've been blessed with the power to survive
After all these years I'm still alive"

Theology has nothing to do with science or politics, it has to do with poetry & song ;-)
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

the_antithesis

Quote from: Paolo on December 07, 2020, 12:58:43 PM
Direct question: among others, has anybody ever 'disproved' the intact tongue of St. Anthony back in Italy? Has any atheist/skeptic ever tried to?

This is a miracle?!?

I guess it's easy to have miracles if you lower your standards like that.

Baruch

Quote from: the_antithesis on January 05, 2021, 10:47:56 AM
This is a miracle?!?

I guess it's easy to have miracles if you lower your standards like that.

That is what the Pharisees said.  Nothing new under the Sun, not even 21st century Pharisees.

The word is "sign" .. which has nothing to do with Enlightenment-tards straw man arguments.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.