Author Topic: Catholic Church "Miracles"  (Read 6372 times)

Offline Baruch

Re: Catholic Church "Miracles"
« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2020, 07:43:07 AM »
BUT I've heard the Catholic Church just doesn't accept any claim of miracles, the 'experts', among them probably scientists, of the Church, evaluate those claims, and have very detailed and rigorous standards for their acceptance. It's only THEN, after extensive investigation, that the Church claims: ''It was, indeed, a miracle''.

Sounds like a skeptical procedure to me...

Scholarly skepticism not scientific skepticism.  If one's standards are high enough, there is no point in believing anything of course.  Materialists stop just short of that.  They believe they matter ;-)
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Offline Baruch

Re: Catholic Church "Miracles"
« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2020, 07:44:03 AM »
"You give me the awful impression, I hate to have to say it, of someone who hasn't read any of the arguments against your position ever."
-Hitch

For some folks, Christopher Hitchens is yet another dead person to worship ;-)
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Offline Baruch

Re: Catholic Church "Miracles"
« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2020, 07:45:30 AM »
Just in case anyone wants to check on your local (US only) clergy. In my church a priest was raping girls as he was performing exorcisms on them. Imagine trying to recover from that. He confessed at least.
https://bishop-accountability.org/priestdb/PriestDBbylastName-A.html

But, but ... I thought they were all gay men? ;-)
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Re: Catholic Church "Miracles"
« Reply #33 on: December 14, 2020, 02:47:15 PM »
BUT I've heard the Catholic Church just doesn't accept any claim of miracles, the 'experts', among them probably scientists, of the Church, evaluate those claims, and have very detailed and rigorous standards for their acceptance. It's only THEN, after extensive investigation, that the Church claims: ''It was, indeed, a miracle''.

Sounds like a skeptical procedure to me...

Again, you fail to understand basic logic.

What you are describing is a textbook example of confirmation bias.

Start with your conclusion (there are miracles associated with the Catholic saints), then look for examples that seem to demonstrate your conclusion. Ignore others examples that seem to refute your conclusion.

This is the exact opposite of a skeptical procedure.
And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence - Russell

Re: Catholic Church "Miracles"
« Reply #34 on: December 14, 2020, 03:22:33 PM »
Scholarly skepticism not scientific skepticism.  If one's standards are high enough, there is no point in believing anything of course.  Materialists stop just short of that.

If one's standards are high enough, there is no point in believing anything of course.  Materialists stop just short of that.

This has nothing to do with correctly applied skepticism. Nor are all skeptics and atheists philosophical materialists. I am a methodological materialist.

I do not make the claim, with absolute certainty, that the material is all that exists. But until someone is able to demonstrate that the nonmaterial does exist, what should my warrant be to accept the claim?

Of course there is a point in believing in plenty of things. I am, after all, presented with some sort of reality that I can interact with. And I assume you accept that we all experience a shared reality?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2020, 03:24:14 PM by Simon Moon »
And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence - Russell

Offline Baruch

Re: Catholic Church "Miracles"
« Reply #35 on: December 14, 2020, 04:45:31 PM »
This has nothing to do with correctly applied skepticism. Nor are all skeptics and atheists philosophical materialists. I am a methodological materialist.

I do not make the claim, with absolute certainty, that the material is all that exists. But until someone is able to demonstrate that the nonmaterial does exist, what should my warrant be to accept the claim?

Of course there is a point in believing in plenty of things. I am, after all, presented with some sort of reality that I can interact with. And I assume you accept that we all experience a shared reality?

Your thoughts are immaterial.  Your likes and dislikes are immaterial.  None of that passes the scientific method for the most part.  So are you saying your thoughts and emotions are objective? ... or you don't have any?

Methodological materialism is very good, if you are an engineer.  It is not so good if you program a computer or write a novel.  The physical book is physical, as is the computer, but the executing code is ephemeral, and the idea in a novel only exists in someone's mind when they read the novel.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Re: Catholic Church "Miracles"
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2020, 09:14:54 PM »
Your thoughts are immaterial.  Your likes and dislikes are immaterial.

Yes, congratulations for pointing out that, out of pragmatic necessity, I am forced to make some presuppositions concerning the world I am presented with. Among those presupposition are: other minds exist, physical reality exists, we share that physical reality, physical reality can be studied, the universe didn't just begin 5 minutes ago, and my memories from before 5 minutes ago have not just been implanted in my brain.

And, I am making the assumption that you have the same presuppositions, unless you are a solipsist. And I believe, that the vast majority of humanity also has the same presuppositions.

These are properly basic beliefs that as a minimum, most of us have, because we are all presented with this world. However, theists, and other believers in the supernatural, claim that there is a further realm or reality, that is not presented to everyone in the same way all of the above is presented to us.

I am presented with other minds, physical reality, my memories, etc. I am not presented with miracles, gods, ghosts, Jinn, etc, etc.

Quote
None of that passes the scientific method for the most part.  So are you saying your thoughts and emotions are objective? ... or you don't have any?

Of course not, it's philosophy. But again, we all have to start with some presuppositions. The best practice, is to keep ones presuppositions to a minimum.

Quote
Methodological materialism is very good, if you are an engineer.  It is not so good if you program a computer or write a novel.  The physical book is physical, as is the computer, but the executing code is ephemeral, and the idea in a novel only exists in someone's mind when they read the novel.

Methodological materialism works great for any existential claim. That is where I utilize it.

Computer programs and novels may be ephemeral, but they are are still part of the material universe.

If you are saying that gods exist conceptually because they are concepts in the human mind, like a novel. Well...okay.

And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence - Russell

Offline Hydra009

Re: Catholic Church "Miracles"
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2020, 09:40:37 PM »
I understand that some so-called 'skeptics' are more dogmatic than their religious counterparts, unfortunately.
Do you have anyone in mind as an example?  (so we know what you consider dogmatic)  Or will the skeptics have to take that as a given as well?

Re: Catholic Church "Miracles"
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2020, 10:47:57 PM »
The funny thing about xtian miracles is how mundane they really are. We have the creator of the universe here trying to prove his existence to us and the answer is some pickled tongue? Water to wine? Really? If I was god I'd put a saddle on a blue whale and do a fly-by, tossing 100 carat diamond necklaces to my adoring fans while blasting the entire planet with heavenly music. Then I would rearrange the constellations to spell "I am the lord thy gawd". Sorry Taurus and Gemini. This doesn't have to be so difficult. There would be no doubt.

Offline Baruch

Re: Catholic Church "Miracles"
« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2020, 11:22:07 PM »
Actual miracles are mundane? Defining them as super-mundane is the gambit of the Pharisees taunting Jesus. A strawman argument.  From that point of view, the miracles of Jesus are mythic, and the faith healings of a Galilean shaman are psychosomatic.  Both religious and non-religious can't see the forest for the trees.

The opening and closing of my hand is both common and mundane.  Interpretation of that is contextual to the person doing the interpretation.  For some people, that context is the philosophy of naturalism.  That isn't my context.  My context is that such a simple action is a miracle, and it happens because all humans (and other living things) are demigods.  I am theist, but not Christian.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2020, 11:23:44 PM by Baruch »
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Re: Catholic Church "Miracles"
« Reply #40 on: December 17, 2020, 05:43:36 AM »
I understand that some so-called 'skeptics' are more dogmatic than their religious counterparts, unfortunately.

“You are the sky. Everything else – it’s just the weather.”

― Pema Chödrön

Offline Baruch

Re: Catholic Church "Miracles"
« Reply #41 on: December 17, 2020, 01:17:17 PM »
The true master race is very few people indeed ;-)  Got a giant cranium?
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Re: Catholic Church "Miracles"
« Reply #42 on: December 17, 2020, 05:41:52 PM »
The funny thing about xtian miracles is how mundane they really are. We have the creator of the universe here trying to prove his existence to us and the answer is some pickled tongue? Water to wine? Really? If I was god I'd put a saddle on a blue whale and do a fly-by, tossing 100 carat diamond necklaces to my adoring fans while blasting the entire planet with heavenly music. Then I would rearrange the constellations to spell "I am the lord thy gawd". Sorry Taurus and Gemini. This doesn't have to be so difficult. There would be no doubt.

I think the next time I have a male canine, I'll name him Lord, so instead of "the Lord my God," I'll have Lord, my dog.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Re: Catholic Church "Miracles"
« Reply #43 on: December 17, 2020, 11:37:41 PM »
Do you have anyone in mind as an example?  (so we know what you consider dogmatic)  Or will the skeptics have to take that as a given as well?

''As well''? What part of my affirmations and/or posts didn't I justify, you little scumbag?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2020, 11:40:02 PM by Paolo »

Re: Catholic Church "Miracles"
« Reply #44 on: December 17, 2020, 11:39:25 PM »


Do you have anything better at your disposal to make a reply of other than a fucking meme?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2021, 06:34:56 AM by Paolo »