Author Topic: Would you fly on a Boeing 737 MAX when they return to service?  (Read 210 times)

Would you fly on a Boeing 737 MAX when they return to service?
« on: November 05, 2020, 04:16:03 PM »
Looks like the Boeing company is finishing up design changes and recertification of it's ill fated passenger jet. Would you book a flight on this aircraft ?

Online Mr.Obvious

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Re: Would you fly on a Boeing 737 MAX when they return to service?
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2020, 04:18:51 PM »
I hardly ever fly. What's the problem with Boeing?
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, requesting 69 last night.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

Re: Would you fly on a Boeing 737 MAX when they return to service?
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2020, 04:50:46 PM »
I hardly ever fly. What's the problem with Boeing?
The new 737 Max had two crashes months apart and was pulled from airline inventories. Boeing's CEO was grilled by congress and then fired. Software design changes followed.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/16/boeing-737-max-safe-to-fly-again-says-easa.html

I think I would wait a while and let them get some air time.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2020, 05:17:38 PM by Cassia »

Offline Baruch

Re: Would you fly on a Boeing 737 MAX when they return to service?
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2020, 08:19:44 PM »
I trust the Boeing management like I trust the management of Morton-Thiokol ;-(
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Offline SGOS

Re: Would you fly on a Boeing 737 MAX when they return to service?
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2020, 02:13:44 AM »
I will wait for them to be proven in service, but that would happen without a conscious effort to boycott them, because I hardly fly, and I hate it when I do.  And during a pandemic, I'm wouldn't fly anywhere for any reason.

But this does not address the issue of 737 safety.  Will they be safe?
The fact is that I don't know.
The probability is that they will probably be safer since they were forced to implement quality control.
How much safer, I don't know.

But the bigger issue is that we live in a new America where corporate profit is more important than consumer safety.  Witness the current pandemic which has killed over 200,000 citizens in 9 months due to government's refusal to implement proper safety measures.

Offline Baruch

Re: Would you fly on a Boeing 737 MAX when they return to service?
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2020, 10:07:26 AM »
Edison cared for your safety, showed how AC could be used to electrocute you.  Yes, corporations now, unlike the past, care for consumers (cough).

My theory ... going back to the Audi 5000, engineers in transitioning from mechanical or analog systems to digital systems, have failed to understand the failure modes of digital systems.  The PE (licensed professional engineers) have failed to double check that.  This problem arose 38 years ago.  Also if something is software controlled (not just digital) then knowing "garbage in/garbage out" there is no way to certify it even in theory.  This may be why that French airliner crashed off of Brazil.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2020, 10:11:09 AM by Baruch »
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Re: Would you fly on a Boeing 737 MAX when they return to service?
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2020, 11:12:13 AM »
Corporations and government literally have to place monetary values on human life, usually measured indirectly as probability of catastrophic failure and costs to reach such a goal. For air transportation I believe  the goal is around 1 million flight hours per catastrophic event.

 I often think about train crossings. I never used to think about them failing or even botherd looking. One day our widows shook with multiple explosions. A semi-tanker truck loaded with fuel got stuck in traffic on the tracks. The crossing worked but didn't help and many people were mummified clinging to their steering wheels. Since then I look.

As Covid-19 approaches about 10K deaths per day globally (currently around 8000) that is about a good sized war every month. I think we become hardened to it.


Offline drunkenshoe

Re: Would you fly on a Boeing 737 MAX when they return to service?
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2020, 11:15:53 AM »
I fly to the US and the UK...or I used to. But had no idea what's been going on. thanks.

E: Ah...lol that's something luxurious. I'll never afford. But yeah, it is better waiting I guess.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2020, 11:19:01 AM by drunkenshoe »
"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are good people and bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides." Havelock Vetinari

Offline Baruch

Re: Would you fly on a Boeing 737 MAX when they return to service?
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2020, 01:33:37 PM »
Corporations and government literally have to place monetary values on human life, usually measured indirectly as probability of catastrophic failure and costs to reach such a goal. For air transportation I believe  the goal is around 1 million flight hours per catastrophic event.

 I often think about train crossings. I never used to think about them failing or even botherd looking. One day our widows shook with multiple explosions. A semi-tanker truck loaded with fuel got stuck in traffic on the tracks. The crossing worked but didn't help and many people were mummified clinging to their steering wheels. Since then I look.

As Covid-19 approaches about 10K deaths per day globally (currently around 8000) that is about a good sized war every month. I think we become hardened to it.


Except for nuclear power reactors.  The government gives infinite indemnity for those.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Re: Would you fly on a Boeing 737 MAX when they return to service?
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2020, 01:43:40 PM »
The new 737 Max had two crashes months apart and was pulled from airline inventories. Boeing's CEO was grilled by congress and then fired. Software design changes followed.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/16/boeing-737-max-safe-to-fly-again-says-easa.html

I think I would wait a while and let them get some air time.
First day in a software class at Purdue, the prof. said "Never fly in an airplane programmed in C."
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Re: Would you fly on a Boeing 737 MAX when they return to service?
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2020, 02:04:53 PM »
AND I have faith they'll work just fine. I flew from JFK to Leonardo da Vinci back in the '70s. Flight started in the night and I dozed. Woke up with the sun shining brightly and then being cut off by clouds. Hmmmm, no clouds at 32,000 feet. Looked at the time. Nowhere near being at Rome yet. Then then PA came on.

"Good morning! We've had a small problem with No. 3 engine and shut it down. We'll be landing in Heathrow in about five minutes."

I tried to go back to sleep.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Baruch

Re: Would you fly on a Boeing 737 MAX when they return to service?
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2020, 06:41:26 PM »
First day in a software class at Purdue, the prof. said "Never fly in an airplane programmed in C."

C or C++  etc use "pointers" ... aka direct addressing of memory.  Memory gets allocated, used, then deallocated aka the clean up of no longer used memory is called "garbage collection" for a reason.  This type of programming is more flexible and also easier to hack or break (deliberate over-writing of same address or accidental corruption of content).
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Offline SGOS

Re: Would you fly on a Boeing 737 MAX when they return to service?
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2020, 09:33:05 AM »
I'm guessing the problems have been addressed.  Additional pilot training still needs to be implemented, and I think airlines will do this, and the FAA will see that they do.  Boeing, airlines, and the FAA have all received a slap on their hands, and I would assume they don't want to slapped again, and the bean counters will be given a back seat to safety issues... at least for awhile.

The latest I've read, which only increases my desire for more information is:
Quote
In both crashes, faulty sensors activated the software, sending the planes toward the ground as the pilots struggled to pull them back up. In a September report, Democrats on the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee said internal Boeing documents showed that concerns raised by employees about MCAS had been dismissed or insufficiently addressed. That report and one from the Transportation Department’s inspector general accused Boeing of misleading the F.A.A. by playing down the complexity of MCAS, perhaps to avoid costly pilot training.
The big question for me is about the faulty sensors.  What was the fault?  What were they sensing and what did they fail to sense?  And what corrective measures should have been sent to the landing software to adjust the planes approach and landing?  It sounds to me that Boeing was shooting for a system that would effectively take pilot knowledge and skill out of the equation.  That way, the airlines could just recruit high school drop outs to sit in the pilot seat reading comic books while the passengers would think their plane was being flown by someone.

I suppose as a consumer, I don't need to have my questions addressed, and I should assume that Big Brother is taking care of me, but still I'd like to know these things.  If they want me to fly more, this would help.  That along with not trying to squeeze me into seats designed for five year olds.  I guess I need to learn my place.  All I'm supposed to know is, "Who do I give my money to for a ticket?"

Offline Baruch

Re: Would you fly on a Boeing 737 MAX when they return to service?
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2020, 10:43:27 AM »
You are free to assume that car manufacturers (Musk) or airplane manufacturers (Boeing) are responsible organizations.  Wish I knew a used car salesman I could refer people to ;-)  And government certification is done in a completely professional manner.  Chinese airlines were already planning cattle accommodation for people (no seats, just standing up and holding a subway roof strap).
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.