Author Topic: There is an organized order, so there must be an organizer?  (Read 1048 times)

There is an organized order, so there must be an organizer?
« on: August 07, 2020, 11:32:03 AM »
Firstly, we have a question?

Is the universe in an organized order, or is it a chaos?

Cosmos in its etymological root means order, in contrast to any order or organization...

So, you agree with that the universe is going where it is going in an organized order??????????????

or it is a chaos?????şdlfjgldfgd?_?????????*

Asking the thread's headline's question? what do you think?

It is very popular rhetoric in Turkland's some circles...

Offline Baruch

Re: There is an organized order, so there must be an organizer?
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2020, 11:52:31 AM »
Firstly, we have a question?

Is the universe in an organized order, or is it a chaos?

Cosmos in its etymological root means order, in contrast to any order or organization...

So, you agree with that the universe is going where it is going in an organized order??????????????

or it is a chaos?????şdlfjgldfgd?_?????????*

Asking the thread's headline's question? what do you think?

It is very popular rhetoric in Turkland's some circles...

The answers are in Greek ... is it Greek to you?

The world was a "chaos" but became a "cosmos" ... from disorder to order.  To an ancient Greek that meant acquiring a personality.  Even in quantum probability, there is order within it.  Even within classical turbulence, there is order within it.  This went from a mythology, to a natural philosophy, under Thales and Pythagoras.  Heraclitus focused on chaos, Xenophanes focused on monotheism (or at least henotheism).  It is anthropomorphic, to say that nature requires a personality (aka Gaia/Uranus coupling).  Specifically Chaos was like the quantum vacuum, a void out of which all things come.  By spontaneous generation, the first gods were formed ... Gaia, Tartarus, Eros, Erebus, Hemera and Nyx.  It is unclear if Uranus came directly from Gaia or indirectly from Aether + Gaia, where Aether is the son of Erebus + Nyx, with Hemera not primordial but the brother of Aether.  Each of these is a personification of some primary human experience/idea.  One can see how monotheism was an obvious improvement ;-)  It took millennia for natural philosophy to turn into physical science.  But materialism and rationalism date back almost as far as classical mythology (the version we know from literate Greece).

It is Aristotelian (and therefore Averroist/Muslim) to insist on a cause of nature that isn't infinite regression.  The problem of a non-infinite regression was a problem for natural philosophy and physical science, until the Big Bang was discovered.  The cosmologist went right back to the beginning and found the theologians were already there  ;-)  Aristotle had to posit a Prime Mover to avoid infinite regression non-theistically.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_causes

Aristotle did his philosophical work thru careful analysis of the Greek language.  But it isn't a complete travesty to do this in a non-Greek language like English ;-))
« Last Edit: August 07, 2020, 11:55:22 AM by Baruch »
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Re: There is an organized order, so there must be an organizer?
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2020, 01:26:42 PM »
It's both--order and chaos.  Or neither--it just is.  If there is any order to anything, it is because we perceive order.  Actually, the universe is coincidence; it is made up of the materials it is made up of and they combine, or not, to form other materials.  That's about it.  If you want your universe to have order and purpose, then it is up to you to make it so.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline aitm

Re: There is an organized order, so there must be an organizer?
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2020, 01:52:23 PM »
If you’re looking for an answer that will fit with your perspective, then your perspective will determine the answer you find. Given the math answer, say 537, and given a set of numbers like, 5,12,3,7 and told to come up with the equation that gives you the answer may be difficult but not improbable. Starting out with the same numbers and applying various equations to see what answers are there present a whole wider range of probabilities. If you start a search already knowing what you want to find, you will indeed find it.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Re: There is an organized order, so there must be an organizer?
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2020, 01:56:20 PM »
It is easy for me to say I don't know much about agency and/or purpose to the universe and leave it at that. Order versus chaos could just be a measure of knowledge.

Offline Baruch

Re: There is an organized order, so there must be an organizer?
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2020, 01:56:40 PM »
It's both--order and chaos.  Or neither--it just is.  If there is any order to anything, it is because we perceive order.  Actually, the universe is coincidence; it is made up of the materials it is made up of and they combine, or not, to form other materials.  That's about it.  If you want your universe to have order and purpose, then it is up to you to make it so.

Yes, it just is.  So? - Dick Cheney

If people are natural, and nature has no purpose, where does human purpose come from?
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Offline Baruch

Re: There is an organized order, so there must be an organizer?
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2020, 01:58:04 PM »
If you’re looking for an answer that will fit with your perspective, then your perspective will determine the answer you find. Given the math answer, say 537, and given a set of numbers like, 5,12,3,7 and told to come up with the equation that gives you the answer may be difficult but not improbable. Starting out with the same numbers and applying various equations to see what answers are there present a whole wider range of probabilities. If you start a search already knowing what you want to find, you will indeed find it.

This is why math is so useful, if you quantify things first.  You can use it to model just about anything.  You are talking about Diophantine Equations by the way, an ancient math game.

@Cassia ... this is why in game theory (particularly gambling) Baysian Probability is useful.  You start out with odds on limited knowledge, and as your knowledge improves (face up cards) the odds change.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2020, 02:00:14 PM by Baruch »
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Re: There is an organized order, so there must be an organizer?
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2020, 02:19:36 PM »
This is why math is so useful, if you quantify things first.  You can use it to model just about anything.  You are talking about Diophantine Equations by the way, an ancient math game.

@Cassia ... this is why in game theory (particularly gambling) Baysian Probability is useful.  You start out with odds on limited knowledge, and as your knowledge improves (face up cards) the odds change.
Yes, and that is why the I find supernatural religious claims to have low probability. By definition a miracle has to have almost zero probability of occurance. The lower the probability, the greater the god.

Offline trdsf

Re: There is an organized order, so there must be an organizer?
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2020, 02:34:32 PM »
Firstly, we have a question?

Is the universe in an organized order, or is it a chaos?

Depends on what scale you're looking at.  On the largest scales, it's quite homogeneous with a few islands of matter here and there.  On the smallest scales, particularly the atomic, it's probabilistic and chaotic within mathematical limits.

Cosmos in its etymological root means order, in contrast to any order or organization...

So, you agree with that the universe is going where it is going in an organized order??????????????

or it is a chaos?????şdlfjgldfgd?_?????????*

Etymology is only descriptive, it has no evidentiary value.

Order arises spontaneously out of chaotic systems that operate on rules, and the universe operates on rules we call the laws of science.  It's an open question how many consistent sets of rules there are that describe long-lived, long-term stable universes.  We know there is at least one set, because we observe we're in a long-lived, long-term stable universe.  There may or may not be others.

Iterate over those rules in this universe, and in just 13.8 billions years you get from a hyperhot quark soup to at least one form of sentient life that can contemplate this universe.



The practical upshot: no, no 'organizer' is needed.
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Offline Mr.Obvious

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Re: There is an organized order, so there must be an organizer?
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2020, 02:59:36 PM »
Chaos and order are human constructs.
As are complexity and simplicity.
As entropy sets in, one might say we are moving more and more to simplicity. One might venture that a move to chaos as structures grow less frequent . Or even as a move towards order, as it is a move to uniformity.
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, requesting 69 last night.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

Offline Baruch

Re: There is an organized order, so there must be an organizer?
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2020, 03:12:47 PM »
How the Logos was said in Greek ...





More than just copies of copies, the material evidence of the human spirit ...



The human being is all the evidence that I need.  I don't need to see the Cosmic Background Radiation.  If human evidence is insufficient, then human produced science is silenced as well.  Science without scientists is a false claim to omniscience.  Democritus (of Atom fame) was called the Laughing Philosopher.  I can only laugh with him at the poverty of mere materialism.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2020, 03:39:40 PM by Baruch »
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Re: There is an organized order, so there must be an organizer?
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2020, 04:22:28 PM »
The human being is all the evidence that I need.
 
Is it: (a) I think, therefore a god
-or-
is it: (b) I think, therefore My God ?

Getting from all that wishy washy, feel good, spiritual feeling stuff to a specific deity and a dogmatic system seems like non evidential irrationality to me. I am of course agnostic on the subject but they don't have agnostic forums, LOL

Offline Hydra009

Re: There is an organized order, so there must be an organizer?
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2020, 04:30:35 PM »
There is an organized order, so there must be an organizer?
Oh goodie, the old "design implies a designer" argument.  And of course, the reason these people say there's design is because they already believe in a designer and also believe in the designer because they believe that there's design.  It's circular logic.

Quote
Is the universe in an organized order, or is it a chaos?
It could be considered either or both or neither depending on what exactly you mean.

We do know for a fact that we're on a rock whizzing around a star with lots of other rocks and they often collide.  And even the stars themselves collide.  And sometimes, planets are flung out from their star into the void between stars.  Stars can also stray outside of their galaxy.

If this is a clockwork universe, it's an extremely messy one.

Quote
Cosmos in its etymological root means order, in contrast to any order or organization...
And the word "fort" means strong, that doesn't necessarily mean that any given fort is strong.  Words simply describe things, they can't define things into existence.

Quote
So, you agree with that the universe is going where it is going in an organized order??????????????
That grammar is definitely an argument against order imo.  :P

Re: There is an organized order, so there must be an organizer?
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2020, 04:46:37 PM »
On the Planck scale there is only the quantum foam, with no order in evidence. On the cosmic scale, again there is no order in evidence. Only on the scales between those can what we call order be seen - our brains perceive it, but our perceptions are very limited.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Offline Hydra009

Re: There is an organized order, so there must be an organizer?
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2020, 10:18:31 PM »
On the Planck scale there is only the quantum foam, with no order in evidence. On the cosmic scale, again there is no order in evidence. Only on the scales between those can what we call order be seen - our brains perceive it, but our perceptions are very limited.
And what little order we get is just a function of natural forces operating in tandem with each other and occassionally pumping out something that we perceive as orderly rather than purposeful, deliberate craftsmanship.

For example, Saturn has this really striking hexagonal cloud pattern at its north pole.  Really wonderful.  But it's not like it gives me pause and makes me think that some divine being came down and made it happen.  Take a liquid, spin it around at different speeds in the middle and at the top and bottom, this is what you get.  It's not magic.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2020, 01:16:43 AM by Hydra009 »