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Trump Versus Biden

Started by Jason Harvestdancer, July 03, 2020, 09:46:46 PM

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GSOgymrat

Healthcare is my number one issue and I believe Biden will be better than Trump. Biden proposes to expand the Affordable Care Act by increasing marketplace subsidies, adopting auto-enrollment, and offering a new public option available to those in the individual market or with employer coverage. The plan would also reduce the Medicare age from 65 to 60, establish a new long-term care tax credit, and increase funding for rural health and mental health services.

Trump says he wanted to end the ACA and replace it with "something terrific" and/or "something great." He says he wants to increase competition and lower healthcare costs with few specifics on how this would be accomplished. Experts tend to believe that it's unlikely Republicans would scrap the ACA entirely because the ACA isn't just about insuring the formerly uninsured; the 900-plus page piece of legislation has also touched many other parts of the American healthcare system. As Trump famously learned, "Nobody knew healthcare could be so complicated." Republicans don't actually have a new healthcare plan and it's likely they would make a few revisions and relabeled the ACA something other than "Obamacare".

Neither support eliminating private insurance and replacing it with Medicare-for-All.

drunkenshoe

Quote from: SGOS on November 09, 2020, 04:45:17 AM
It's times like this when a little help from the media could be useful.  Mysterious actions by a government are spooky, and don't build confidence in leadership.

It's...kind of different. It's gonna be bad...but you know, it is gonna be good long term. Otherwise, it's FUBAR.
"science is not about building a body of known 'facts'. ıt is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting them to a reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever makes us feel good." - tp

SGOS

Trump just fired the Secretary of Defense for disagreeing with him about sending in national troops to protest rallies against police brutality last June.
Quote
NYT
Mr. Esper’s downfall had been expected for months, after he took the rare step in June of disagreeing publicly with Mr. Trump and saying that active-duty military troops should not be sent to control the wave of protests in American cities. The president, who had threatened to use the Insurrection Act to do exactly that, was furious, officials said.
How long is it to January?

Blackleaf

#873
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 09, 2020, 09:01:39 AM
I am a natural optimist (one reason these last 4 yrs have been so hard for me) and I think you may be selling Biden a bit short.  This is my thought at this moment--feel free to kick holes in it. :)  Biden is just the right personality that is needed right now.  He has 50yrs of political 'service'.  He knows the people in congress and the other 'movers and shakers'.  He is highly regarded in most circles in DC.  He has a history of caring (or at least respecting) for people, has a reputation of being a healer, of being able to be empathetic and sympathetic.  He has a task of undoing the trump evil and I think he can do that long, slow job.  He will not do anything groundbreaking, but doing repair work, work that he has done in the past (just not to the level he will need to do it now).  I do not see him fired up, or even caring much about, any career building that a younger politician would care about. I can even see him stepping down after 4 years of repair and letting the younger dems take over.  Biden does not have an ego problem.  I see him thinking of himself of more of a bridge than hard-charger for change.  Anyway, he very well may be just the thing we need now in DC.

While I don't expect huge leaps in progress from Biden, especially if Republicans continue to hold the Senate majority in January, after thinking about it, I've come to the conclusion that Biden is definitely what we needed right now. He's basically the total opposite of what Trump is. Trump dedicated his entire political career to dividing this country, to sowing anger, and granting legitimacy to conspiracy theories. Biden may have run as a Democrat, but he's a Centrist. All of Trump's attempts to paint him as a radical, who plans to defund the police and turn America to socialism failed because we knew who he was. Trump entered office with zero experience, and his incompetence in the arena showed. Biden, on the other hand, has had decades of experience, serving in the Senate as far back as 1973. The Right attempted to spin this as a negative, but that's rich coming from the party of career politicians. Biden's goal has been described several times as to bring the Left and the Right together, and to promote compromise over party division. I believe that he genuinely means that, and he has a personal relationship with McConnell, the Senate majority leader. Now, McConnell is one of the most partisan Republicans in office, but if Biden is able to get through to him, maybe we can actually get some stuff done.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

Hydra009

Quote from: GSOgymrat on November 09, 2020, 01:36:21 PMNeither support eliminating private insurance and replacing it with Medicare-for-All.

Hijiri Byakuren

Quote from: Hydra009 on November 08, 2020, 12:08:45 PM


Arguably, they did a better job there than the coronavirus response.
I guess you could say they were caught between a cock and a charred place.
Speak when you have something to say, not when you have to say something.

Sargon The Grape - My Youtube Channel

Hydra009

Quote from: Blackleaf on November 09, 2020, 02:19:47 PMBiden's goal has been described several times as to bring the Left and the Right together, and to promote compromise over party division
That's a laudable goal though I personally doubt the Right will be receptive to it.  They're too used to sabre-rattling and sectarian warfare to give it up now.  Personally, I believe this is going to end up like the Aesop's fable about the frog and the scorpion.  But hey, it might turn out like the turtle and the scorpion.  You never know.  Either way, I'm glad I'm not the one sticking my neck out.

QuoteI believe that he genuinely means that, and his personal relationship with McConnell. Now, McConnell is one of the most partisan Republicans in office, but if Biden is able to get through to him, maybe we can actually get some stuff done.
I wouldn't count on it, unfortunately.  I expect McConnell to behave no differently than he has during Trump and Obama presidencies.

GSOgymrat

If Trump could have stopped tweeting and behaved like a world leader I think he would have won the election. Even though Trump was delivering for conservatives, he couldn't become a better version of himself, he simply couldn't manage his narcissism. From Philip Klein, executive editor of the conservative Washington Examiner:

... Trump had so many chances to act like a president. He could have shed his campaign-style once he was elected or sworn in. Instead, he began his presidency spending days digging into a pointless lie about the size of his inauguration crowds.

Throughout his presidency, Trump’s Twitter feed and his public statements were filled with invective. He spread conspiracies and lobbed insults. Nearly every controversy Trump created during his time in office was due to his failure to grasp the gravity of the office â€" that saying things as president can carry significant consequences and thus is different than saying them as a private citizen. A stray tweet can rock the stock market or trigger an unnecessary foreign policy crisis or spread dangerous disinformation. ...

Unfortunately for the nation, as well as his reelection prospects, he was incapable of doing so. He could not abandon the persona of indulging petty feuds during a pandemic. He could not understand that in a time of crisis, people want the truth, not happy talk and unsubstantiated boasts about how great things were going and how quickly it would be over. ...

History will record that Trump tried to downplay the virus. But as we write the rough draft, it’s important to note that Trump’s behavior was not just unserious but erratic. It would be one thing if, from the get-go, he argued that people shouldn’t give up their lives due to the coronavirus and resisted lockdowns. Instead, he was all over the place. He embraced “15 days to slow the spread” and then extended it. He tweeted, “Liberate Michigan,” and then, when Georgia tried to ease restrictions, he said that he “strongly disagreed” with Gov. Brian Kemp. Trump repeatedly praised Anthony Fauci and listened to pretty much all of his recommendations for months, but then closed out the campaign indulging chants of “Fire Fauci” at a raucous campaign rally.

As Trump faces obvious defeat, he is still incapable of putting the country before his fragile ego. He is making unsubstantiated accusations that the election has been stolen and claiming to have won “by a lot.” He will likely drag the country through weeks of litigation and months more of riling up his supporters about election fraud. In short, he will still not be able to behave like a president.

Baruch

Bwahah ... unite Hitler and Stalin ... that worked out well, for less than 2 years.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.


Baruch

Biden isn't smart now, if he ever was.  I don't think anyone who runs for President is smart.  The grifters who want to be officials in the Administration, those are the smart ones, as in evil smart.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Hydra009

Yeah, it's nice Biden is getting a crack team together.  He certainly has his work cut out from him.  The first year or two of his presidency will likely just be cleaning up the gigantic mess of the past 4 years.

For starters, he's going to have to fumigate the Oval Office and get everything wiped down with disinfecting wipes to get rid of the covid.  Maybe grab a broom to coax Eric out and I believe Giuliani is still most vulnerable at midday.  Maybe use a stake-winch thing like in that John Carpenter movie.

drunkenshoe

#882
I don't agree with Philip Klein. Actually, I don't agree with the general idea of 'if Trump was or had done...'  What's that? Conservative apologetics? The problem is not one man.

Forget about the president Trump, what does this man do? Who is he? What does he do for a living? He is a sleazy salesman with a net worth of 2.5 billion dolars. His life is based founding businesses and bankrupting them, he doesn't give a fuck about the people in the bussinesses he failed. He can't. If he did, he wouldn't be able to do this job and what's more, it doesn't even touch him remotely.

If Trump had acted like a president that man described, he wouldn't have had this support and the following. He wouldn't have even won. Trump knows this better than his critiques, because he has read America better than anyone as a salesman for the period. That's his real job.

And they loved him for that, there was an instant bond between this man and his group, because those people see that vulgarity, those controversies and conspiracy as 'saying it the way he sees it' = 'the truth'. You keep telling how it is all badly corrupt at both sides, how fucked up all system is...etc and how repulsed you all are. I have been reading this for nearly a decade.

Well, that's what Trump exploited by speaking the other America's language. He exploited what all hard working Americans feel and turned it into a product to sell his target group in the right time. After Obama. He knew that the more he contrasted him, the better he would sell his.

Do you honestly think, as a person, Donald Trump is so stupid that he doesn't understand the difference of his own style and what has been before him in that office?

The problem is not Trump. It's a symptom. Trump was just there and he fit. They will create their own Trump if necessary.

It's the certain group of people. What do they want? Do they actually want anything at all or is this just about being a part of something they think is meaningful? What is it?

"science is not about building a body of known 'facts'. ıt is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting them to a reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever makes us feel good." - tp

SGOS

Quote from: drunkenshoe on November 10, 2020, 02:45:05 AM
I don't agree with Philip Klein. Actually, I don't agree with the general idea of 'if Trump was or had done...'  What's that? Conservative apologetics? The problem is not one man.

If Trump had acted like a president that man described, he wouldn't have had this support and the following. He wouldn't have even won. Trump knows this better than his critiques, because he has read America better than anyone as a salesman for the period. That's his real job.
His strength is in his salesmanship for sure.  He did tap into something in America that I thought was long dead, and I think many others thought it was a dead issue too.  Could he have made more changes that would have strengthened his support?  Maybe, but he didn't.  He played to his main strengths and then dramatically increased his support in his second election by playing to those strengths. 

It's nice to bask in Biden's victory, and I still am, but I haven't lost sight of how phenomenally well Trump did the second time around, and he did that without using all those "could of" and "should ofs" that Philip Klein points to.  Had this not been a record turnout, he would have won by a large margin, especially in the electoral college. 

But why the record turnout?  This election was about Trump, both for his supporters and those who voted for Biden.  Biden is not powerful enough to generate enough interest to cause a record turnout.  But Trump is.  I'm pretty sure we can thank Trump for the turnout of his supporters and those people like me who just couldn't take any more of him.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on November 10, 2020, 02:45:05 AM
Do you honestly think, as a person, Donald Trump is so stupid that he doesn't understand the difference of his own style and what has been before him in that office?
I've wondered about that a lot.  Is the man smart or stupid?  Probably a bit of both.  He's a Hell of a salesman, and that takes smarts, at least smarts of a psychopathic nature. As a politician, maybe not so smart.  Bottom line, he's lacking in the intelligence required to stay in office as much as today's pollsters are lacking the knowledge of predicting political outcomes.  It may just be that he happened to be good at the things that successful politicians need in TODAY'S political environment.  He just happened to show up at the right time, speaking to the emotions of people, rather than their intellect.  He just hasn't mastered the art of knowing when to stop pushing buttons when he needs to.  This was evident in the last months before the election, instead of softening his positions and reaching out across the isle when it looked like things were going south, he doubled down on what he does best.  But it only works with less than half of the voters, and half of those voters don't usually show up at the polls, except for this year.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on November 10, 2020, 02:45:05 AM
The problem is not Trump. It's a symptom. Trump was just there and he fit. They will create their own Trump if necessary.
That's what I think.  He was just in the right place at the right time, talking to a nation in decay.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on November 10, 2020, 02:45:05 AM
It's the certain group of people. What do they want? Do they actually want anything at all or is this just about being a part of something they think is meaningful? What is it?
That's a hard question, and I can't even speculate.

Cassia

The elephant in the room is always religion. If you are taught as a kid to swallow all that nonsense; you are set-up to TRUELY believe anything and everything, as along as it suits your purposes. It lowers the rationality threshold standards of a society. This is why so many rabid tRumpsters happen to go big on Cheese-us and suck up conspiracy after conspiracy. The only way out is subsequent generations that largely ditch the faith. Not there yet, but the boomers are dying out and it seems their kids do have better vision.