George Floyd and racial justice

Started by GSOgymrat, May 30, 2020, 09:11:58 AM

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Unbeliever

Some protest here, very little damage, but not zero.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Unbeliever

Trump's trying to declare war on American citizens. Why am I not surprised?
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Munch

Have to wonder, if this occurred 6-8 years ago with Obama in office, and if there was a pandemic the same as today back then, would the reaction have been the same? Would tensions have been the same during that period that lead to this?
'Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners' - George Carlin

Mermaid

Quote from: Munch on June 02, 2020, 07:33:40 PM
Have to wonder, if this occurred 6-8 years ago with Obama in office, and if there was a pandemic the same as today back then, would the reaction have been the same? Would tensions have been the same during that period that lead to this?
I doubt it, because Obama was a leader and didn't make everything about himself and his might.
A cynical habit of thought and speech, a readiness to criticise work which the critic himself never tries to perform, an intellectual aloofness which will not accept contact with life’s realities â€" all these are marks, not as the possessor would fain to think, of superiority but of weakness. -TR

Unbeliever

Trump wants to Make America Grovel Again.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

GSOgymrat

Quote from: Munch on June 02, 2020, 07:33:40 PM
Have to wonder, if this occurred 6-8 years ago with Obama in office, and if there was a pandemic the same as today back then, would the reaction have been the same? Would tensions have been the same during that period that lead to this?

No. Americans are much more polarized now than four years ago. Also Trump isn't trying to de-escalate the situation, he's trying to intimidate people like an angry boss. He's completely out of his depth. The failure of government on the federal and state level to effectively address the pandemic has revealed multiple systemic breakdowns. In the past, Americans pulled together in times of crisis but not during this pandemic. Americans aren't worried about Russia, China or immigrants from Mexico, they have identified groups of other Americans as the enemy.

Mike Cl

Quote from: Munch on June 02, 2020, 01:57:54 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/01/bob-kroll-george-floyd-minneapolis-police-union-chief

oh dear dear. Seems like certain details now coming out about george floyd other news outlets and online boards don't want the world to hear.

Turns out, as told by Lt Bob Kroll, president of the Police Officers Federation of Minneapolis, Floyd has a criminal past, including when he broke into a womans house and held her at gunpoint at her pregnant belly. Also something not often discussed was why the police was called on him in the first place, was that he was using a fake $20 note, leading to the officer being called.

Now obviously this doesn't absolve the police that killed him, they didn't know his criminal past when it occured, although infomation is out also that Derek Chauvin had a past with Floyd in security, have to find more on that, so maybe they had a history themselves.

Again Floyds past deeds doesn't absolve Chauvin for killing him, but it does show things aren't as black and white as being made out, and if this turns out to be true, whats said about him by Bob Kroll, if I were the woman whos life Floyd threatened, I'd probably be thinking less then regretful thoughts at what happened.
You remind me of a rapist who goes on to blame the victim--she was a convicted shoplifter, or she wore tight jeans and a halter top--what was I supposed to do?, or she has been in juvenile hall several times, or she has been to jail numerous times--and on and on.  Are you suggesting that if a person has a 'criminal record' then they forfeit all rights?  That everything they do is criminal based and therefore they are fair game to whatever a cop wants to do to them?  Even if this guy had knowingly passed off a counterfeit bill, does that give the cops the right to treat him as they see fit?  He was handcuffed and on his face.  What the fuck could he do to that cop???  And the cop kept the pressure on his neck for several long minutes.  Why not get up off the guy, lift him up and put him into a patrol car?  I really don't understand you attitude. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Mike Cl

Quote from: Munch on June 02, 2020, 07:33:40 PM
Have to wonder, if this occurred 6-8 years ago with Obama in office, and if there was a pandemic the same as today back then, would the reaction have been the same? Would tensions have been the same during that period that lead to this?
Obama (nor Bush--yes war criminal Bush, nor Clinton, nor Daddy Bush, nor any other president in our history) would not have let the pandemic get to this stage.  He would have handled this situation as he did Ferguson.  He was a leader.  No matter what excuses you want to give to the orange monster he is not a leader.  He does not like people.  He loves money and power and that's it.  Why you refuse to see this is beyond my ability to understand.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Munch

#203
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 02, 2020, 08:30:12 PM
You remind me of a rapist who goes on to blame the victim--she was a convicted shoplifter, or she wore tight jeans and a halter top--what was I supposed to do?, or she has been in juvenile hall several times, or she has been to jail numerous times--and on and on.  Are you suggesting that if a person has a 'criminal record' then they forfeit all rights?  That everything they do is criminal based and therefore they are fair game to whatever a cop wants to do to them?  Even if this guy had knowingly passed off a counterfeit bill, does that give the cops the right to treat him as they see fit?  He was handcuffed and on his face.  What the fuck could he do to that cop???  And the cop kept the pressure on his neck for several long minutes.  Why not get up off the guy, lift him up and put him into a patrol car?  I really don't understand you attitude.

I understand tensions are high over there so people are riled up, but calling someone 'like a rapist' to find a comparison to something like this is pretty fucking shallow, given what rape victims go through.

Saying that, your also jumping the shark because you making assumptions based on what I said and your own outlook. I said the the same post to quoted, whatever floyd's past was it didn't excuse an officer killing him, even if the officer had known any of it which he wouldn't have. I was simply saying that if these things are true about his past, then it seems bizarre painting him as an innocent victim and the face of this current protest when he might have threatened a pregnant woman with a gun. My point was this whole thing isn't a black and white as your making it out to be.

QuoteI doubt it, because Obama was a leader and didn't make everything about himself and his might.

even when obama was in office, there was still white/black tension in america, lets not pretend it went away just because he was in office for two terms.

QuoteObama (nor Bush--yes war criminal Bush, nor Clinton, nor Daddy Bush, nor any other president in our history) would not have let the pandemic get to this stage.  He would have handled this situation as he did Ferguson.  He was a leader.  No matter what excuses you want to give to the orange monster he is not a leader.  He does not like people.  He loves money and power and that's it.  Why you refuse to see this is beyond my ability to understand.

you must imagine that because I'm not screaming on twitter about how evil donald trump is that must mean I like him. I've said it several times, I don't hate or like him, I view him as a catalyst, what someone like him being in power causes other people to act like, and so far for the last few years, all thats done is given me more reason to be skeptical about people in general. These protests and violent riots have shown the kind of people around today how they are and what something like trump makes them act like.
'Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners' - George Carlin

Shiranu

#204
Apparently D.C. is now bringing in mercenaries to patrol the streets. The current guess is they are Erik Prince's "Academi", formerly known as Blackwater before the shit show that was Iraq... but the fact that any PMC is being hired is troubling.


Edit: Also, apparently Blackwater's founder is the brother to Betsy-fucking-Devos.



"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

Munch

I'm just waiting for when the new virus spread sparks up because of these protests and riots, because it went from a case of staying indoors to save lives from the disease and support doctors and nurses from making things harder on them, to now just ignoring all that.
'Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners' - George Carlin

Mike Cl

Quote from: Munch on June 02, 2020, 09:20:58 PM
I understand tensions are high over there so people are riled up, but calling someone 'like a rapist' to find a comparison to something like this is pretty fucking shallow, given what rape victims go through.

Saying that, your also jumping the shark because you making assumptions based on what I said and your own outlook. I said the the same post to quoted, whatever floyd's past was it didn't excuse an officer killing him, even if the officer had known any of it which he wouldn't have. I was simply saying that if these things are true about his past, then it seems bizarre painting him as an innocent victim and the face of this current protest when he might have threatened a pregnant woman with a gun. My point was this whole thing isn't a black and white as your making it out to be.

even when obama was in office, there was still white/black tension in america, lets not pretend it went away just because he was in office for two terms.

you must imagine that because I'm not screaming on twitter about how evil donald trump is that must mean I like him. I've said it several times, I don't hate or like him, I view him as a catalyst, what someone like him being in power causes other people to act like, and so far for the last few years, all thats done is given me more reason to be skeptical about people in general. These protests and violent riots have shown the kind of people around today how they are and what something like trump makes them act like.
What I'm saying, Munch, is that you seem to have a huge right-wing streak running through you.  And every now and again, you spew it out.  You have put down time and again, the extreme leftists.  I have not seen you go through that same take on the growing number of alt-right groups.  You are a nice guy, Munch, but every now and again you rile me up.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Hydra009

Quote from: Munch on June 02, 2020, 09:40:28 PMI'm just waiting for when the new virus spread sparks up because of these protests and riots, because it went from a case of staying indoors to save lives from the disease and support doctors and nurses from making things harder on them, to now just ignoring all that.
Yeah, well murder has a way of freaking people out.  Plus, it seems kinda messed up for nurses and doctors to save lives only for cops to snuff them out.

But yeah, I'm bracing for a fresh wave (is this our second or third?  Or did the first one never really stop?).  There has been some effort for people to maintain social distancing, though of course that goes all out the window when the shit hits the fan.

Munch

#208
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 02, 2020, 09:47:44 PM
What I'm saying, Munch, is that you seem to have a huge right-wing streak running through you.  And every now and again, you spew it out.  You have put down time and again, the extreme leftists.  I have not seen you go through that same take on the growing number of alt-right groups.  You are a nice guy, Munch, but every now and again you rile me up.

serious now. I'm not a right winger, and I'm not left leaning these days either, I have things I believe in that float left and right in the middle of the spectrum. I don't like extremism of any kind, religious, political, social, but fact is there is a strong left leaning bias on these forums, and while for the most part it doesn't bother me, I'll come in times to give a counterpoint to some of these arguments just to get a middle of the road discussion going.

I have to sit listening to my mother in this pandemic phrasing boris johnson, who she voted for but I didn't, and often trying to in the most tender way possible tell her how boris fucked up and we're suffering because of it, but she's a 70+ year old woman so thats like watching on eggshells in how I tell it. Usually I can have a better conversation with my brother about it and how its like holding my breath when these things come up.

point is, I don't stick to one side, I prefer to make my own observation in topics. only reason it probably seems I'm right leaning is because with most others here having stronger left leaning beliefs I come off right leaning because of where I sit on the spectrum. Not going to apologies for that.


For the record though, I don't want anyone here getting hurt by this, I don't want anyone caught up in the chaos this events caused. Don't know how this is going to turn out but rather everyone just do there best to keep away from the struggles going on and just vent online instead.

QuoteYeah, well murder has a way of freaking people out.  Plus, it seems kinda messed up for nurses and doctors to save lives only for cops to snuff them out.

But yeah, I'm bracing for a fresh wave (is this our second or third?  Or did the first one never really stop?).  There has been some effort for people to maintain social distancing, though of course that goes all out the window when the shit hits the fan.

it never really ended, since in places like america and the uk, while the virus was still out in force people started going to beaches and hanging out in the hot weather. Theres some rumors how the virus is mutating into a less agressive strain but I'd hold off believing that until proven.
'Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners' - George Carlin

Blackleaf

Quote from: Munch on June 02, 2020, 07:33:40 PM
Have to wonder, if this occurred 6-8 years ago with Obama in office, and if there was a pandemic the same as today back then, would the reaction have been the same? Would tensions have been the same during that period that lead to this?

You say the strangest things. If this happened during Obama's term, he would not have spread misinformation, or claimed that the virus was a hoax, or an excuse for Republicans to try to make him look bad. When riots broke out, he would do what he could to calm things down, rather than make things worse. Obama wouldn't have been able to fix everything with a magic wand, but if we had virtually anyone other than the current idiot in charge, things would be much better. We literally have the worst possible person to lead us through the year 2020.

Quote from: Munch on June 02, 2020, 09:20:58 PMeven when obama was in office, there was still white/black tension in america, lets not pretend it went away just because he was in office for two terms.

Duh. Whoever said that there wasn't? The point is, every time Trump takes to Twitter, he riles people up. Obama never threatened to treat American citizens like they are terrorists to be gunned down. Trump didn't make people racist (again, duh, but I can just hear that strawman coming from your keyboard), but he did embolden racists by giving them legitimacy. Every year he spends in office is a decade of progress lost.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--