Apologetics You're Unlikely to Hear

Started by Jagella, May 26, 2020, 11:13:07 PM

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Jagella

The Argument From the Character of Christians:
If you skeptics want to see why God is real, then just look at the character of us Christians. Only the indwelling of the Holy Ghost can explain our superhuman honesty, trustworthiness, and sensible behavior.

The Argument From Substantive Presentation (We will show you.):
If a jumble of words does not convince you, and you want to actually see God, then just lookee here--here he is!

The Argument from Knowledge:
I can tell you anything you want to know because I'm talking to God, and he will tell me.

The Argument From Testing Prayer:
God's power is granted through prayer, so go ahead and test prayer to see if what I'm saying is true.

The Argument From Read the Bible and See
We are so confident that the Holy Bible is the word of God, that we ask you to read it and come to your own conclusions regarding its divine authorship. We will accept any conclusion you come to and will treat you with respect even if you disagree with us.

The Argument from Miraculous Demonstration:
1 Corinthians 12 clearly promises us Christians the power to heal miraculously, and I will prove it to be true. Get those TV cameras ready, and assemble the skeptics to be eyewitnesses. Now, see this amputee over here? Just watch me go restore his legs in the name of Jesus!

Hydra009

Quote from: Jagella on May 26, 2020, 11:13:07 PM
The Argument From the Character of Christians:
If you skeptics want to see why God is real, then just look at the character of us Christians. Only the indwelling of the Holy Ghost can explain our superhuman honesty, trustworthiness, and sensible behavior.
I've actually heard that one.  Needless to say, this seems like a much stronger argument when surrounded with decent people at church and not when you're flipping through the evening news or driving by a megachurch or cracking open a history book.

Hydra009

#2
Quote from: Jagella on May 26, 2020, 11:13:07 PMThe Argument From Substance:
If a jumble of words does not convince you, and you want to actually see God, then just lookee here--here he is!

The Argument from Miraculous Demonstration:
1 Corinthians 12 clearly promises us Christians the power to heal miraculously, and I will prove it to be true. Get those TV cameras ready, and assemble the skeptics to be eyewitnesses. Now, see this amputee over here? Just watch me go restore his legs in the name of Jesus!
I would take back like 90% of my criticism if they would give me the Doubting Thomas treatment.

Quote from: John 20:24-28 (NIV)24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came.
25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”  But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!”
27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
It's super simple stuff.  Just make a housecall, show something that's pretty clearly supernatural, and boom, instant convert.  Well, that might be moving too fast.  Someone who now takes religious claims a lot more seriously and finally has something tangible to work off of.

From there, it's relatively simple matter to investigate the religious group further and as evidence starts stacking up, it's pretty easy to admit that there's something there.  And it doesn't have to be to showy, it can just be a couple amputee healings in plain view or something similar.  As long as it's something that wouldn't spontaneously happen, that's pretty strong evidence.

Blackleaf

Quote from: Hydra009 on May 27, 2020, 12:06:50 AM
I've actually heard that one.  Needless to say, this seems like a much stronger argument when surrounded with decent people at church and not when you're flipping through the evening news or driving by a megachurch or cracking open a history book.

"They will know we are Christians by our love." God I hate that song. Patting themselves on the back, acting like they're better than everyone else, like they're not responsible for many of the world's problems.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

Jagella

#4
Quote from: Hydra009 on May 27, 2020, 12:06:50 AM
I've actually heard that one.  Needless to say, this seems like a much stronger argument when surrounded with decent people at church and not when you're flipping through the evening news or driving by a megachurch or cracking open a history book.

Were you surrounded by people who exhibited superhuman honesty, trustworthiness, and sensible behavior that can only be explained by the indwelling of the Holy Ghost?

Baruch

#5
Quote from: Hydra009 on May 27, 2020, 12:06:50 AM
I've actually heard that one.  Needless to say, this seems like a much stronger argument when surrounded with decent people at church and not when you're flipping through the evening news or driving by a megachurch or cracking open a history book.

Pagans did nothing wrong ;-)  Colosseum, Aztecs ...
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: Blackleaf on May 27, 2020, 02:57:12 AM
"They will know we are Christians by our love." God I hate that song. Patting themselves on the back, acting like they're better than everyone else, like they're not responsible for many of the world's problems.

Yes, virtue signalers are so un-cool.  Particularly SJWs?
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: Jagella on May 27, 2020, 08:07:11 AM
Were you surrounded by people who exhibited superhuman honesty, trustworthiness, and sensible behavior that can only be explained by the indwelling of the Holy Ghost?

Casper the Friendly Ghost ... actually ;-)
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Jagella

Quote from: Hydra009 on May 27, 2020, 12:22:03 AM
I would take back like 90% of my criticism if they would give me the Doubting Thomas treatment.

When Jesus told Thomas that it's more blessed to believe than to doubt, I've often wondered if that means we should believe everything we are told by any person.

In any case, Thomas received special treatment from Jesus. Jesus won't bother to appear to most of us to convince us he rose from the dead.

Jagella

Quote from: Blackleaf on May 27, 2020, 02:57:12 AM
"They will know we are Christians by our love." God I hate that song. Patting themselves on the back, acting like they're better than everyone else, like they're not responsible for many of the world's problems.

I believe that song is more of an incentive for Christians to love others than it is a declaration of their love for others.

But it is basically true; we can know Christians by their love.

Jagella

Quote from: Baruch on May 27, 2020, 09:11:46 AM
Casper the Friendly Ghost ... actually ;-)

Casper would be an improvement over the Holy Ghost. Consider what the Holy Ghost did to Ananias and his wife. (Acts 5) As far as I know Casper never bumped-off anybody because they didn't give him everything they had.

Hydra009

Quote from: Jagella on May 27, 2020, 08:07:11 AM
Were you surrounded by people who exhibited superhuman honesty, trustworthiness, and sensible behavior that can only be explained by the indwelling of the Holy Ghost?
Haha, no.  Just decent enough people who thought that meant more than it did and were pretty desperate for new arguments.

Baruch

#12
Quote from: Jagella on May 27, 2020, 01:57:52 PM
I believe that song is more of an incentive for Christians to love others than it is a declaration of their love for others.

But it is basically true; we can know Christians by their love.

In apocryphal gospels it is gay Jesus loving young men (Greek pederastry).  That is the "young man fleeing naked" from Gesthemane when the Temple guards came to arrest Jesus.  In Greek there is eros, philos and agape.  No reason to think that this was just limited to agape.  Philos could mean several things, but included pederastry.  Literally this was a gay initiation ceremony, to gain membership to a roving gang of homeless men.  Women weren't members, just material supporters (a gnostic group not a church).  Though I don't think a little eros (straight sex) would have been out of place.  Think the broadway play, Godspell, but with realistic interpersonal relationships, like in the 60s ... including taking local drugs (wine, opium and weed).  Of course no "church" congregation would accept this, now or 2000 years ago.  The original Jesus Hippie movement died out by 135 CE.  At that point "elders", "deacons" of the Pauline Church were the norm, which was totally square.  And by that time the first bishops had come into play.  The "Didache" is the best documentation of an early Pauline Church.  Complete with pentecostalism.  Pentecostalism was driven from the Pauline Church by the bishops, in the 2nd century CE, because of the prophet Montanus and his two female hierophants/hierodules.  It had to be reimported into Christianity, from the African Church (in America 120 years ago).  Unless you can realistically "see" what an ancient cultus was like, you are just projecting 21st century sour grapes.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

#13
Quote from: Jagella on May 27, 2020, 02:03:33 PM
Casper would be an improvement over the Holy Ghost. Consider what the Holy Ghost did to Ananias and his wife. (Acts 5) As far as I know Casper never bumped-off anybody because they didn't give him everything they had.

The early Jerusalem Church was a commune, like the kibbutz but urban.  The Last Supper was in the urban Essene quarter of Jerusalem.  Also broad minded in that both Hellenized and Palestinian Jews could be members.  But not Gentiles.  The story is referring to the assassination of a couple of welshers, who needed to be made an example of "for others".  This is basically the same as any other Leftist revolution.  Do not imagine, that in the first two centuries CE, that Jewish revolutionaries were typically pacifist, or pro-Gentile.  That was the Pauline mission, which existed N and W of Antioch.  That mission dies out when Constantine takes over.  The Church since 320 CE has nothing to do with the New Testament.  The New Testament being a pastiche of Pauline or Pauline-compatible preaching and novellas ... which does not accurately reflect 1st century CE conditions.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Blackleaf

#14
Quote from: Jagella on May 27, 2020, 01:57:52 PM
I believe that song is more of an incentive for Christians to love others than it is a declaration of their love for others.

But it is basically true; we can know Christians by their love.

It's based on John 13:35, which says, "By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." If there's one thing Christians are not known for, it's their love. But of course, they say, "They aren't real Christians!" But claiming that most Christians don't count only proves my point.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--