Author Topic: The Craziest Christian Apologetic  (Read 486 times)

Re: The Craziest Christian Apologetic
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2020, 10:08:11 PM »
I have unusual dreams too.  Even met Jesus once.  But I don't go around preaching that.

Apologists say that the disciples preached Jesus so fervently because they saw him risen from the grave. I probably would not act like that. If I saw somebody risen from the dead and only had my word, then I wouldn't expect anybody to believe me. Why should they? They'd probably think I was lying or crazy, and I could not disagree with them.

Offline Hydra009

Re: The Craziest Christian Apologetic
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2020, 10:16:28 PM »
I think the craziest argument has to be that their religion's claims are true because their early leaders "wouldn't lie".  Oh really?

It's especially egregious when you realize that's what they claim about the other religious people - if not lying, then mistaken.  But somehow, it's not possible for their own leaders to be mistaken.

Everyone's infallible and everyone else is fallible.  It paints a very strange picture.

Re: The Craziest Christian Apologetic
« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2020, 10:01:29 AM »
I think the craziest argument has to be that their religion's claims are true because their early leaders "wouldn't lie".  Oh really?

A major effort on the part of Christian apologists is to convince skeptics that "the disciples" could not have lied. They argue that the disciples could not have died for what they knew to be false. Apologists don't seem to realize that people don't always have a choice when they are killed. If the martyred disciples did die for their beliefs when they could have lived, then they were very foolish to do so. I don't generally find the word of fools to be very convincing.

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It's especially egregious when you realize that's what they claim about the other religious people - if not lying, then mistaken.  But somehow, it's not possible for their own leaders to be mistaken.

Apologists start out arguing that the early Christians had certain qualities that made their testimony believable. When you cite figures from other religions that had the same qualities, apologists then move the goalposts hoping that you cannot cite a figure with the same qualities. Consider Joseph Smith, for example. He was a martyr of sorts and had eyewitnesses to back up his testimony. If you point out these facts to apologists, they will quickly abandon their arguments that martyrs with eyewitnesses are to be trusted, and find some faults with Smith's death and/or his eyewitnesses.

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Everyone's infallible and everyone else is fallible.  It paints a very strange picture.

It's special pleading to the max!


Offline Baruch

Re: The Craziest Christian Apologetic
« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2020, 01:08:41 PM »
Apologists say that the disciples preached Jesus so fervently because they saw him risen from the grave. I probably would not act like that. If I saw somebody risen from the dead and only had my word, then I wouldn't expect anybody to believe me. Why should they? They'd probably think I was lying or crazy, and I could not disagree with them.

Women saw Jesus rise first ... then men didn't believe them.  #Believe All Women ;-)
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Re: The Craziest Christian Apologetic
« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2020, 10:33:39 PM »
Women saw Jesus rise first ... then men didn't believe them.  #Believe All Women ;-)

Apologists claim that the story of the women discovering the empty tomb is likely to be historical because among the Jews women were not considered to be reliable witnesses, and therefore the disciples would not have made up the story. I'm wondering how the women were eyewitnesses because we don't have their testimony. The women in question only appear in the story. Besides, the story goes on to say that the disciples confirmed the empty tomb, and so nobody needs the women's testimony (assuming the story is true).

Anyway, if I make up a story I wonder if anybody will use my story as evidence that the story is true.

Offline Baruch

Re: The Craziest Christian Apologetic
« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2020, 12:51:27 AM »
Apologists claim that the story of the women discovering the empty tomb is likely to be historical because among the Jews women were not considered to be reliable witnesses, and therefore the disciples would not have made up the story. I'm wondering how the women were eyewitnesses because we don't have their testimony. The women in question only appear in the story. Besides, the story goes on to say that the disciples confirmed the empty tomb, and so nobody needs the women's testimony (assuming the story is true).

Anyway, if I make up a story I wonder if anybody will use my story as evidence that the story is true.

The gyrations of apologetics are funny, are they not?
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Re: The Craziest Christian Apologetic
« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2020, 11:47:54 AM »
The gyrations of apologetics are funny, are they not?

I don't know if I would describe apologetics as funny. I've worked as an educator, and I realize the importance of people knowing what's going on in the world. We misinform people at our peril. If we are to survive pandemics like the current Covid 19 crisis, then we need to have informed people thinking logically to survive them. Can you imagine relying on creationists to find solutions to disease outbreaks? We would be in dire straits!

It is no laughing matter.

Re: The Craziest Christian Apologetic
« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2020, 12:49:59 PM »
Apologists claim that the story of the women discovering the empty tomb is likely to be historical because among the Jews women were not considered to be reliable witnesses, and therefore the disciples would not have made up the story. I'm wondering how the women were eyewitnesses because we don't have their testimony. The women in question only appear in the story. Besides, the story goes on to say that the disciples confirmed the empty tomb, and so nobody needs the women's testimony (assuming the story is true).

Anyway, if I make up a story I wonder if anybody will use my story as evidence that the story is true.
But Jews didn't write the Gospels, so their culture isn't evenrelevent.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Re: The Craziest Christian Apologetic
« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2020, 07:42:29 PM »
But Jews didn't write the Gospels, so their culture isn't evenrelevent.

What makes you say that Jews didn't write the Gospels?

In any case, you might be right. We don't know who wrote the Gospels, but whoever they were, they didn't write the Gospels in Hebrew but in Greek. They also differed markedly in their theology compared to the Jewish scriptures. God was split into three and created a heaven and a hell--beliefs that don't appear in the Hebrew Bible.

Re: The Craziest Christian Apologetic
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2020, 10:10:26 PM »
Well, I should probably not have stated that as a declarative, but my opinion, since I no longer have access to the texts I'd need to back it up. It boils down to all the geographical and cultural errors in the gospels, that a Jew would likely not have made.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Offline Baruch

Re: The Craziest Christian Apologetic
« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2020, 11:47:39 AM »
I don't know if I would describe apologetics as funny. I've worked as an educator, and I realize the importance of people knowing what's going on in the world. We misinform people at our peril. If we are to survive pandemics like the current Covid 19 crisis, then we need to have informed people thinking logically to survive them. Can you imagine relying on creationists to find solutions to disease outbreaks? We would be in dire straits!

It is no laughing matter.

You have no sense of humor right now ;-(  There are no truths, just government lies! (see Pontius Pilate)  Yes, a dystopia will happen tomorrow morning, the irreligious have prophetic powers ;-)  Unfortunately, the world is more likely to fall back into the Middle Age or the Stone Age because of civilization collapse, not because Twitter doesn't censor sufficiently.  And college educated people are just young Maxists now ... I wouldn't put them in charge of a bad flu.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Offline Baruch

Re: The Craziest Christian Apologetic
« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2020, 11:52:52 AM »
Well, I should probably not have stated that as a declarative, but my opinion, since I no longer have access to the texts I'd need to back it up. It boils down to all the geographical and cultural errors in the gospels, that a Jew would likely not have made.

There were 23 different kinds of Jews in the 1st century CE, per Josephus.  It is convenient to agree with the eventual majority Jewish opinion, since it is anti-Messianic, and anti-Christian.  If we simply agree with anyone who is anti-Christian, why not convert to Islam?

I tend to agree that Paul wasn't an Orthodox rabbi, because those didn't exist until about 150 years later.  Hellenistic Jews wrote the Gospels, as religious fiction.  After the fall of Jerusalem in 70 CE.  They were among the losing 23 kinds of Jews.  There still are, a few Jews who are not Orthodox ;-)  Most of them are secular, irreligious posers.  And then there are the Karaites and the Samaritans.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2020, 11:55:02 AM by Baruch »
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Offline Baruch

Re: The Craziest Christian Apologetic
« Reply #42 on: May 25, 2020, 11:53:31 AM »
But Jews didn't write the Gospels, so their culture isn't evenrelevent.

As the High Priest of Israel, you are qualified ;-)  Jesus of San Fran.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Offline trdsf

Re: The Craziest Christian Apologetic
« Reply #43 on: May 25, 2020, 08:55:39 PM »
William Lane Craig argues that the story of Jesus being placed in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea is likely true because Christians would not make up a story that makes a member of the Sanhedrin look like a nice guy. It seems to me that it is unlikely that a member of the Sanhedrin would offer his tomb for Jesus to be buried in, but Craig doesn't seem to understand that.
Yes, and because it's really unlikely that there's a special train to Hogwarts that you can access by walking through a brick wall, that means it's more likely there must be one.  Good grief...
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan