On so-called ''Miracles''...

[Baruch]

That's the thing with christians (and other theists), facts and thinking matters not to them.  You can 'prove' something to them and they still will not believe you.  You can throw trumpites into that mess, as well.  Facts matter not................

And Hitlery supporters ;-)  People aren't logical.  We aren't Vulcans either ... we act based on psychology, not abstract math.

[Unbeliever]

There are no Hillary supporters, you're living in the past. Try keeping up with current events.

[Blackleaf]

There are no Hillary supporters, you're living in the past. Try keeping up with current events.

But how is he supposed to engage in dismissive what-aboutism if he can't keep bringing up a politician who lost years ago, who many Democrats weren't very fond of in the first place, and have no bearing on modern events?

[Baruch]

There are no Hillary supporters, you're living in the past. Try keeping up with current events.

You still support Karl Marx, who has been dead how long??  Or are you claiming Biden likes to smell your hair?

[Baruch]

But how is he supposed to engage in dismissive what-aboutism if he can't keep bringing up a politician who lost years ago, who many Democrats weren't very fond of in the first place, and have no bearing on modern events?

How can you deny your god? ;-) ... she will be you nominee, or VP.  Bill needs access to more young women ;-))  Cuomo is too busy being NY governor.

Yea, some were Bernie supporters.  Taken to the cleaners twice!

[Jagella]

That's the thing with christians (and other theists), facts and thinking matters not to them.  You can 'prove' something to them and they still will not believe you.  You can throw trumpites into that mess, as well.  Facts matter not................

Yes, and what you're saying here is very important. Many people, even some atheists, insist that we leave Christians to their own devices. "If they want to believe it, then let them go ahead!" That's nonsense because the "devices" of Christians can and do harm innocent people. The rights of Christians end where the rights of others begin. People need to be protected from all kinds of quackery, and that includes faith healing.

[Cassia]

I like J. Randy but....

[Baruch]

Yes, and what you're saying here is very important. Many people, even some atheists, insist that we leave Christians to their own devices. "If they want to believe it, then let them go ahead!" That's nonsense because the "devices" of Christians can and do harm innocent people. The rights of Christians end where the rights of others begin. People need to be protected from all kinds of quackery, and that includes faith healing.

Typically in US law, in the case of media say radio, it is illegal to make false claims.  This was used to shut down Tarot card on-line scams.  The US law is very serious about false medical claims (this would include faith healing).  The question is, will existing law be enforced?

[Mike Cl]

Yes, and what you're saying here is very important. Many people, even some atheists, insist that we leave Christians to their own devices. "If they want to believe it, then let them go ahead!" That's nonsense because the "devices" of Christians can and do harm innocent people. The rights of Christians end where the rights of others begin. People need to be protected from all kinds of quackery, and that includes faith healing.

I quite agree--it IS important.  Theists insist that they have a 'right' to force their beliefs on me.  If they have a problem with contraception's; or abortions; or drinking; or dressing a certain way; or certain medications; or holidays; or any number of things, then don't use them or eat them or observe them--but don't tell me what to do or how to do it.  They have a right to believe as they wish; but not if it directly impacts me.

[Blackleaf]

I quite agree--it IS important.  Theists insist that they have a 'right' to force their beliefs on me.  If they have a problem with contraception's; or abortions; or drinking; or dressing a certain way; or certain medications; or holidays; or any number of things, then don't use them or eat them or observe them--but don't tell me what to do or how to do it.  They have a right to believe as they wish; but not if it directly impacts me.

When on the defensive, they always retreat to their "worldview" defense. They want tolerance for their beliefs, but they'll turn right back and express nothing but intolerance for everyone else.

[Baruch]

I quite agree--it IS important.  Theists insist that they have a 'right' to force their beliefs on me.  If they have a problem with contraception's; or abortions; or drinking; or dressing a certain way; or certain medications; or holidays; or any number of things, then don't use them or eat them or observe them--but don't tell me what to do or how to do it.  They have a right to believe as they wish; but not if it directly impacts me.

I have a problem with anyone using force or brainwashing on me.  I am not converting to Islam etc.  We agree however that the government has this right.  Which is why it is important to keep religion and state separate.  When the Republicans went Evangelical in the 80s, they totally lost me.  Of course they weren't genuinely religious, they were vote caging.  Just like Labour in GB does with the Muslim vote.

[Baruch]

When on the defensive, they always retreat to their "worldview" defense. They want tolerance for their beliefs, but they'll turn right back and express nothing but intolerance for everyone else.

I like tolerant atheists too.  It is the combination of atheism with communism that burns.  Communists are intolerant.

[GSOgymrat]

Miracles are not merely claims of the supernatural or the highly improbable but claims of causality. The preacher, the sacred spring, the prayer vigil, a particular god or whatnot is assigned credit for someone's ailment resolving or someone surviving a calamity. I can agree that something amazing, fortuitous or highly improbable happened without agreeing that X caused it. I'm not saying I know why your malignant tumor disappeared but I seriously doubt you know why either.

[Hydra009]

In general, how do you see miracle stories? Like those from pastors such as Todd White, or people claiming to have been cured from incurable diseases...do you dismiss them out of hand or do you think they need each a case-for-case evaluation?

How would you (or anyone) establish even the potential for miracles, let alone that one happened?

When something happens, its cause is either known or unknown.  Known causes are always mundane and unknown causes are just that - unknown.  As they are pieced together, they may become known.  Or, if not, they may stay unknown for the time being.

Whence comes miracles?  The best case scenario (for a believer) is something that is unknown and stays unknown.  But is it not a leap in logic to say that just because something is unknown that it must be supernatural?  Imo, that's like going into a pitch-black room and describing the colors of the objects therein.  At best, that's just guesswork.  At worst, it's entirely wrong.

[Hydra009]

When on the defensive, they always retreat to their "worldview" defense. They want tolerance for their beliefs, but they'll turn right back and express nothing but intolerance for everyone else.

Right.  And conveniently, the "worldview" defense can be used for anything and everything.  Disease is caused by demons.  2 + 2 = 5.  The world is a mote in a giant's eye.  All are equally valid worldviews which should be afforded respect simply because some people believe them.  Wouldn't want to be intolerant, right?