On so-called ''Miracles''...

[Paolo]

In general, how do you see miracle stories? Like those from pastors such as Todd White, or people claiming to have been cured from incurable diseases...do you dismiss them out of hand or do you think they need each a case-for-case evaluation?

Regards. :)

[Sal1981]

I reserve judgement over miracles, insofar that I've yet to see one. They're also easy to define out of existence if you mean something that defies nature.

Most stuff that people mean, when they say miracle, can be explained by natural causes.

[Paolo]

I reserve judgement over miracles, insofar that I've yet to see one. They're also easy to define out of existence if you mean something that defies nature.

Most stuff that people mean, when they say miracle, can be explained by natural causes.

So you mean you don't rule out their existence a priori?

[Sal1981]

So you mean you don't rule out their existence a priori?

I think they are difficult to define, is all.

[SGOS]

I don't believe miracles happen.  However, I do believe some people have a miracle mindset.  The miracle mindset can be part of the conscious mind, or reside in the subconscious mind.  Those with the miracle mindset can see miracles in extraordinary events, or in the most mundane everyday occurrences.  Recovering from cancer or a bird chirping outside your window can be a miracle, but only to the beholder or the beholder's peer group. Whether miracles actually exist cannot be answered, not even by the pope, who sends out occasional miracle investigators, all of whom are religiously or politically motivated (they are the same thing).  They talk to observers, and then debate among themselves. If they come to an actual consensus,  they report back to the Vatican, where a recorder documents the event in a book as a miracle. 

Scientists are not equipped to identify miracles.  Miracles can only be identified by religious perception.  Of course, some scientists might also have flawed perceptions.  Insanity crosses all ideological boundaries, so some doctors and scientists claim things they don't yet understand are miracles.  The deeply religious simply understand everything using the "God did it" explanation:  "Why is chlorophyll green?  God did it."  The skeptic only expresses healthy doubt.

[Cassia]

For first person events, magicians certainly understand the strong reliability of humans on their easily fooled sensory perception and how to exploit it. For second-hand stories, we learn to rely on authorities as children (reliance on parents). This continues throughout life for child-like adults. I am still looking for any major university peer reviewed research that makes a strong case for anything supernatural. There should be millions or billions of cases if an active deity was constantly working throughout the world as the religious claim. A miracle medical claim never involves a cut and dry recovery such as an amputee regaining a limb. Most claims that I have heard involve an internal tumor or cancer that has disappeared and is impossible to verify as a miracle.

[Paolo]

I am still looking for any major university peer reviewed research that makes a strong case for anything supernatural. There should be millions or billions of cases if an active deity was constantly working throughout the world as the religious claim. A miracle medical claim never involves a cut and dry recovery such as an amputee regaining a limb. Most claims that I have heard involve an internal tumor or cancer that has disappeared and is impossible to verify as a miracle.

This part I think is the heart of the problem. There should be papers like this if true miracles existed. Strangely enough, one friend of mine has claimed that he has heard from other friends that they saw that amputees were regaining limbs at the evangelical event ''The Send''. But that friend of mine has psych issues, so even that claim of hearsay is dubious...

[Baruch]

In general, how do you see miracle stories? Like those from pastors such as Todd White, or people claiming to have been cured from incurable diseases...do you dismiss them out of hand or do you think they need each a case-for-case evaluation?

Regards. :)

As defined by atheists, there are no miracles.  As defined by Roman Catholics, there are miracles, but only for Roman Catholics.  As defined by Charismatics, there are miracles, but only for Charismatics.  So this is a semantic argument, not a biological argument.  Ultimately, all human arguments are psychological.

Another angle is the paranormal.  In my own life and anecdotally in the lives of others (including relatives) the paranormal is quite real.  But again, it is a question of psychology.  For atheists, the universe is maximally boring, they dismiss not just theology, but philosophy and psychology ;-)  Only physics is real, because geeks.

[Baruch]

I think they are difficult to define, is all.

Difficult to study in controlled repeatable conditions, by definition.  So their empirical status is popular but unprofessional.  Of course one can choose an ideological position on anything, but that would be pseudo-rational.

[Baruch]

This part I think is the heart of the problem. There should be papers like this if true miracles existed. Strangely enough, one friend of mine has claimed that he has heard from other friends that they saw that amputees were regaining limbs at the evangelical event ''The Send''. But that friend of mine has psych issues, so even that claim of hearsay is dubious...

What is truth? - Pontius Pilatus

However, the more spectacular claim, the more dubious ... secular or religious.

[Mike Cl]

Miracles are simply  unexplained happenings.  Since nature is all there is, nothing can be supernatural.  If we perceive something as a miracle it is because we don't understand the process that led to that happening or we have a mindset that wants to 'believe' it was a miracle.  To those who 'believe' no amount of reasoned thinking will persuade them that it was not a miracle. Simpy put, there are no miracles.

[aitm]

There are miracles and then there are “miracles”. Ha. It is not a miracle when statistical probabilities suggest eventually A will happen, such a plane crash when only one survives, or the opposite, when getting out of your car a tree branch falls at the exact time and kills you.

To me a real “miracle” must defy science. Show me a crashing plane that suddenly slows and floats gently to the ground....then you have my attention.

[Baruch]

Miracles are simply  unexplained happenings.  Since nature is all there is, nothing can be supernatural.  If we perceive something as a miracle it is because we don't understand the process that led to that happening or we have a mindset that wants to 'believe' it was a miracle.  To those who 'believe' no amount of reasoned thinking will persuade them that it was not a miracle. Simpy put, there are no miracles.

Aliens in flying saucers are miracles? ;-)  Yes, people don't understand.  They never do, though they often claim to ;-)

Believing in aliens is the modern equivalent of angelology/demonology.  For Marxists (aka Progressives), the inevitable development of technology brings salvation, rather than aliens with superior technology and superior morals.

[Baruch]

There are miracles and then there are “miracles”. Ha. It is not a miracle when statistical probabilities suggest eventually A will happen, such a plane crash when only one survives, or the opposite, when getting out of your car a tree branch falls at the exact time and kills you.

To me a real “miracle” must defy science. Show me a crashing plane that suddenly slows and floats gently to the ground....then you have my attention.

The Pharisees did nothing wrong ;-)

[Jagella]

In general, how do you see miracle stories? Like those from pastors such as Todd White, or people claiming to have been cured from incurable diseases...do you dismiss them out of hand or do you think they need each a case-for-case evaluation?

Regards. :)

I was scammed by faith healers a long time ago. I learned my lesson, and yes, I now dismiss miracle stories as baloney. I may look at cases of these stories but only to see if they're novel malarkey.