Author Topic: History is as much myth as fact  (Read 340 times)

Offline Gregory

History is as much myth as fact
« on: April 02, 2020, 10:02:57 PM »
When history dies, it drowns in myth. At present, history is under seige from both sides of politics. Both telling lies.

Re: History is as much myth as fact
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2020, 10:26:12 PM »
When history dies, it drowns in myth. At present, history is under seige from both sides of politics. Both telling lies.
History has always been written by the victors.  The history in our school system is made up of quite a bit of propaganda.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Gregory

Re: History is as much myth as fact
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2020, 10:34:04 PM »
And yet we know better, for the truth is out there waiting to be found.

Re: History is as much myth as fact
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2020, 04:39:46 AM »
History has always been written by the victors.   
LOL, you've never heard of Vietnam.

That cliche was appropriate back in the times when the winners exterminated the losers. Last few thousand years, not so much.

Your high school history classes didn't do you any favors, folks.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Baruch

Re: History is as much myth as fact
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2020, 07:41:08 AM »
When history dies, it drowns in myth. At present, history is under seige from both sides of politics. Both telling lies.

Marxism says everything is politics, and all politics is class.  Neo-Marxism is the pseudo-intellectualism of our age.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Offline Baruch

Re: History is as much myth as fact
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2020, 07:42:06 AM »
History has always been written by the victors.  The history in our school system is made up of quite a bit of propaganda.

True.  But would you rather be the loser?
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Re: History is as much myth as fact
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2020, 09:39:01 AM »
LOL, you've never heard of Vietnam.

That cliche was appropriate back in the times when the winners exterminated the losers. Last few thousand years, not so much.

Your high school history classes didn't do you any favors, folks.
I wasn't necessarily meaning that the winner of a war got to write the history.  I'm sure the history of the Vietnam War written by the North Vietnamese is quite a bit different than our account(s).  By victor, in this country, I mean the political point of view that was prevalent at the time dictates the point of view of some particular act/war, gets to write our history of it.  The prevalent view of  Nam was different than what actually happened; the Gulf of Tonkin incident was not as officially reported--it was an excuse to go to war.  It did have precedent in our country--The Spanish American war and the War with Mexico also were started by false reports.

The history of this country is written by those who are in control of the educational/corporate sections of this country.  Howard Zinn does provide some reality to this countries history.     
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: History is as much myth as fact
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2020, 10:19:38 AM »
Historiography is the discipline of sorting out political agendas from fact. I took that class twice, once as an undergrad and once in grad school. It's helpful.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Re: History is as much myth as fact
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2020, 10:33:48 AM »
I majored in history in college.  It was an eye-opening experience to say the least.  But it was interesting.  High school history and college history do not compute for the most part.  For example, George Washington did exist.  But much of the stories about him are a mixture of fiction/myth and fact.  And even the 'fact' can have a couple of different points of view.  But that is what made it so much fun.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Baruch

Re: History is as much myth as fact
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2020, 01:28:50 PM »
I wasn't necessarily meaning that the winner of a war got to write the history.  I'm sure the history of the Vietnam War written by the North Vietnamese is quite a bit different than our account(s).  By victor, in this country, I mean the political point of view that was prevalent at the time dictates the point of view of some particular act/war, gets to write our history of it.  The prevalent view of  Nam was different than what actually happened; the Gulf of Tonkin incident was not as officially reported--it was an excuse to go to war.  It did have precedent in our country--The Spanish American war and the War with Mexico also were started by false reports.

The history of this country is written by those who are in control of the educational/corporate sections of this country.  Howard Zinn does provide some reality to this countries history.   

True.  Ironically the history of the Vietnam war wrote itself ... the Pentagon Papers ;-(

ALL wars are started by false reports (we are talking about politicians here).  FDR arranged for Japan to attack the US, by cutting off their oil and scrap steel, but the US didn't think Hawaii was in danger.  Where did Japan also attack on Dec 7th?  The Philippines.  That is where FDR expected them to attack.  So he was right.  Gen Billy Mitchell predicted Hawaii would be attacked, just the way it actually was, but he had been court-martialed years earlier.  Double Agent Dushko told J Edgar that the Japanese had an unusual interest in Hawaii, wanted him (on a trip to the US paid by the Germans) to check out Hawaii for them.  J Edgar hated spies and thru him out of his office.  Supposedly the Portuguese Embassy in Tokyo, warned the US a few days before, that the Japanese were going to attack.  And of course we were already reading "Purple", we knew everything the Japanese Embassy in the US was hearing from there.

There are a band of brave truth tellers, the SJW Brigade.  Hooray!  Kind of like the Abraham Lincoln Brigade, fighting fascism in Spain (but for the Communist Party).  History rhymes, often in Cyrillic.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Offline Baruch

Re: History is as much myth as fact
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2020, 01:30:59 PM »
I majored in history in college.  It was an eye-opening experience to say the least.  But it was interesting.  High school history and college history do not compute for the most part.  For example, George Washington did exist.  But much of the stories about him are a mixture of fiction/myth and fact.  And even the 'fact' can have a couple of different points of view.  But that is what made it so much fun.

We didn't know until recent decades, about Ultra and GCHQ.  Can any story of WW II be right, if that is excluded?  The British still have state secrets from the War of 1812.  Yes, many points of view.  But consider not just the POV, but the agenda, of each of them.  The point is to create a narrative or a counter-narrative.  The reason for writing history (since Herodotus) is to promote patriotism or promote sedition (Pentagon Paper reveal again).
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Offline Baruch

Re: History is as much myth as fact
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2020, 01:32:31 PM »
Historiography is the discipline of sorting out political agendas from fact. I took that class twice, once as an undergrad and once in grad school. It's helpful.

The bare facts have no interpretation.  For that you have to get inside people's heads, often people long dead.  Like some kids said why they hated history ... just a dry list of dates and events (which are mostly factual).  When we really want to know did Columbus have to sleep with Queen Isabella to get those ships.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Offline Baruch

Re: History is as much myth as fact
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2020, 10:45:01 PM »
My favorite Navy channel about my favorite battle ...

Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Re: History is as much myth as fact
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2020, 06:21:25 AM »
You should read Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline SGOS

Re: History is as much myth as fact
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2020, 07:13:44 AM »
History has always been written by the victors.
We know a lot of truth about Vietnam, which is probably because we didn't win that war and weren't able to shove a lot truth under the carpet, but I think history is a mixture of truth and propaganda.  The more truth, the better the history.