Author Topic: The Bible (and it's many versions)  (Read 106 times)

The Bible (and it's many versions)
« on: March 23, 2020, 10:03:37 AM »
This is a great site for textual criticism: http://www.skypoint.com/members/waltzmn/intro.html

There is no 'The Bible', Newton.  It did not drop from the sky fully formed.   We don't know any of it's authors, with the exception of Paul.  And half (at least) of his writings are by others who write in his name.  Consider the 'gospels'--I've read there were 85 of them known to exist, but most of them by name only; most of them have been totally destroyed.  Even today, there is not one accepted official 'The Bible'.  Go into any christian book store and one can find many, many different 'versions' with not one of them universally accepted as the 'Original'.  This is not in dispute and is simply a fact.  It's easy to understand why.  God is not the creator of mankind, but mankind is the creator of  God.  There is not one christian god.  Each denomination of christians have a god they say is 'The One'--christians cannot prove this, but they love to tout it.  (And there are literally thousands of denominations, each one claims to be the One)  Your bible is the creation of a political process, not one interested in truth or honesty.  And whichever faction was the most powerful dictated the bible's content.  Witness the huge number of different bibles. 

To think that a 'creator' god could not do better than this is simply blindness.  Newton, your god could only write in Aramic?  He could not write in English, German, Indian, Japanese, Chinese, etc. is granting he cannot see into the future; cannot know the languages of his 'creation'.  Not a smart god, is he?!  He produced his human owners manual in only one palace and in only one obscure language?  If we could find bibles sprinkled around the world, in the languages of each area, saying the same thing would be proof positive that a God existed, at least for me.  But do we find this?--of course not.  Clearly humans created the bible(s); and each group had their own agenda.  Clearly, mankind produced the bible and it's contents and clearly, humans created your god and every other god ever mentioned. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: The Bible (and it's many versions)
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2020, 07:41:27 PM »
Newton, I'd love to read your response to the following:

Printed Versions of the New Testament
The first complete New Testament to be published was the edition of Erasmus, now known as the Textus Receptus ("The text received [by all]" -- a phrase derived from an advertising blurb in a later edition!). This was published, with great haste and on the basis of only a handful of late manuscripts, in 1516 (the printer wanted to beat a rival edition onto the market, and so hurried Erasmus and then pushed the edition through the press without proper oversight). Yet it formed the basis for all Greek editions for over three centuries; Luther's German translation and the English King James Version (as well as most of the English editions preceding the KJV) were translated from editions of the Textus Receptus.

The Textus Receptus had a text that was fairly typical of the manuscripts of its time, and for the first century or so of its existence no one worried much about its text. But in the early seventeenth century the Codex Alexandrinus arrived in England from the Middle East. This produced a sensation, since it was a very old (fifth century) manuscript which often disagreed violently with the Textus Receptus. Suddenly scholars began to realize that there were different forms of the New Testament text.

It was not until 1831, however, that Karl Lachmann (1793-1851) published the first Greek testament not based on the Textus Receptus. Lachmann's edition differed from the Textus Receptus at thousands of points, some of them significant. His text came under immediate and intense attack. Yet almost every Greek edition since Lachmann's time has been closer to his text than the Textus Receptus. The reason was that textual criticism was beginning to come into its own, and the Textus Receptus no longer appeared adequate.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: The Bible (and it's many versions)
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2020, 02:54:18 AM »
http://www.skypoint.com/members/waltzmn/
Actually, this is a better starting link of a site that is simply amazing.  When I was most deeply involved in my research of discovery for myself of the history of the Bible, I stumbled upon this site.  I then used it as my main area of study, branching off into other sites for more information.  It is a huge source of textual criticism (lower criticism) whose purpose is to determine what the original text would have said.  This gives us what the various texts said, not what was meant.  And in many, many cases (most) it deals with probabilities of what the various texts said--we don't know, really, since there have been no original manuscripts found, only old, older or oldest forms, never original.  Source, form and literary criticism is also fascinating.  Newton, you need to spend some time on this site.  It will demonstrate to you (well, it would if you have an open mind and are after facts and not fancy or only finding what it is you want to find) that your translation is no better than any other and it is terribly flawed; as are all the rest.  When source, form and literary criticism of the bible is added in one has to realize that the bible is not an original document agreed upon by all, with a linear history leading straight to the original authors; or that it has an unwavering message flowing from the misty, misty past to the present.  It is a collection of documents that even as I type is evolving into different forms and messages.  That is the work of mankind, not divine in any way, shape, or form.  That is very, very clear unless your mind is clouded by wishful thinking, beliefs you want to hold or blind (and mind numbing) faith.   
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Baruch

Re: The Bible (and it's many versions)
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2020, 06:58:02 AM »
Lower criticism = denotation and connotation

Upper criticism = homily and mysticism ... can't have that ;-)
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't to that.

Offline aitm

Re: The Bible (and it's many versions)
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2020, 09:15:46 AM »
I have read the babble three times, each time is was batshit crazier than the last. I have decided that for me, it is simply a fictional book. I try not to get into discussing the verses as such for that would suggest I consider it worth discussing and to the other party that I give it enough weight to consider it worth discussing.

I would no more argue verses than argue if a certain sentence for the “Brothers Grime” stories are worth discussion and thought.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Re: The Bible (and it's many versions)
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2020, 11:12:25 PM »
This is a great site for textual criticism: http://www.skypoint.com/members/waltzmn/intro.html

There is no 'The Bible', Newton.  It did not drop from the sky fully formed.   We don't know any of it's authors, with the exception of Paul.  And half (at least) of his writings are by others who write in his name.  Consider the 'gospels'--I've read there were 85 of them known to exist, but most of them by name only; most of them have been totally destroyed.  Even today, there is not one accepted official 'The Bible'.  Go into any christian book store and one can find many, many different 'versions' with not one of them universally accepted as the 'Original'.  This is not in dispute and is simply a fact.  It's easy to understand why.  God is not the creator of mankind, but mankind is the creator of  God.  There is not one christian god.  Each denomination of christians have a god they say is 'The One'--christians cannot prove this, but they love to tout it.  (And there are literally thousands of denominations, each one claims to be the One)  Your bible is the creation of a political process, not one interested in truth or honesty.  And whichever faction was the most powerful dictated the bible's content.  Witness the huge number of different bibles. 

To think that a 'creator' god could not do better than this is simply blindness.  Newton, your god could only write in Aramic?  He could not write in English, German, Indian, Japanese, Chinese, etc. is granting he cannot see into the future; cannot know the languages of his 'creation'.  Not a smart god, is he?!  He produced his human owners manual in only one palace and in only one obscure language?  If we could find bibles sprinkled around the world, in the languages of each area, saying the same thing would be proof positive that a God existed, at least for me.  But do we find this?--of course not.  Clearly humans created the bible(s); and each group had their own agenda.  Clearly, mankind produced the bible and it's contents and clearly, humans created your god and every other god ever mentioned.

Different Bible versions are not a major problem for Christian apologetics as far as I'm concerned. If a God exists, then she might tailor her message to different people possibly making use of different versions of the Bible.

But you do make some very good points. I agree that a perfect God would communicate to different people in languages they can understand. Heck, she wouldn't even need a book but could and would just reveal herself to us individually. After all, if a God reveals her message to the so-called prophets, then she could reveal that message directly to us all cutting out the middle-men!

And all of this is assuming she would even want to talk to us, an unproven assumption that we self-absorbed people make. Maybe a God would prefer dogs!

Re: The Bible (and it's many versions)
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2020, 11:31:59 PM »
I think she would prefer cats.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Baruch

Re: The Bible (and it's many versions)
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2020, 11:33:20 PM »
I think she would prefer cats.

Your dogs are offended!
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't to that.

Re: The Bible (and it's many versions)
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2020, 01:46:25 AM »
This is a great site for textual criticism: http://www.skypoint.com/members/waltzmn/intro.html

There is no 'The Bible', Newton.  It did not drop from the sky fully formed.   We don't know any of it's authors, with the exception of Paul.  And half (at least) of his writings are by others who write in his name.  Consider the 'gospels'--I've read there were 85 of them known to exist, but most of them by name only; most of them have been totally destroyed.  Even today, there is not one accepted official 'The Bible'.  Go into any christian book store and one can find many, many different 'versions' with not one of them universally accepted as the 'Original'.  This is not in dispute and is simply a fact.  It's easy to understand why.  God is not the creator of mankind, but mankind is the creator of  God.  There is not one christian god.  Each denomination of christians have a god they say is 'The One'--christians cannot prove this, but they love to tout it.  (And there are literally thousands of denominations, each one claims to be the One)  Your bible is the creation of a political process, not one interested in truth or honesty.  And whichever faction was the most powerful dictated the bible's content.  Witness the huge number of different bibles. 

To think that a 'creator' god could not do better than this is simply blindness.  Newton, your god could only write in Aramic?  He could not write in English, German, Indian, Japanese, Chinese, etc. is granting he cannot see into the future; cannot know the languages of his 'creation'.  Not a smart god, is he?!  He produced his human owners manual in only one palace and in only one obscure language?  If we could find bibles sprinkled around the world, in the languages of each area, saying the same thing would be proof positive that a God existed, at least for me.  But do we find this?--of course not.  Clearly humans created the bible(s); and each group had their own agenda.  Clearly, mankind produced the bible and it's contents and clearly, humans created your god and every other god ever mentioned.

Thank you for starting this thread Mike.   Sorry I haven't been online lately - in and out of the hospital - and susceptible to Corona though, like most, I have not been tested.    The good news:

You can't catch viruses on the internet!

OK, I'll try to respond to your points one at a time:

1.   You start off by saying there is no "The Bible."   I expected you to go on about other sacred books like the Koran (aka Quran), etc.   Or to refer to various Jewish books like those in the Catholic Bible apocrypha or the Pseudepigrapha, etc.   However, you seem to be referring to what I was referring to as "the Bible."   I will respond further on that when you clarify.

2.    You posted: "We don't know any of it's authors, with the exception of Paul." 

Actually, there is only one author - Jehovah - and I think we will agree that you do not know Jehovah (no offense meant).  However, since you mentioned Paul (I assume the apostle Paul), I think you meant writers - since Paul was the writer of a number of Bible books.   Paul explained that all Scripture is inspired of God - so the writers were not the author:

2 Timothy 3:16
New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (Study Edition)
16 All Scripture is inspired of God+ and beneficial for teaching,+ for reproving, for setting things straight,* for disciplining in righteousness,+

Another Bible writer, Peter, confirmed the same point here:

2 Peter 1:20, 21 (NWSTY)
20 For you know this first, that no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation. 21 For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will,+ but men spoke from God as they were moved* by holy spirit.+

[Note - Here is a link to my favorite Bible translation plus other translations including a Greek-English interlinear:

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/dx/r1/lp-e/1001070165/30592

===============

Luke, who wrote the book of Acts, also confirms this point here (with some context):

Acts 3:19-24 (NW ref - 1984 edition)
“Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get YOUR sins blotted out, that seasons* of refreshing+ may come from the person* of Jehovah* 20 and that he may send forth the Christ appointed for YOU, Jesus, 21 whom heaven, indeed, must hold within itself* until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old time. 22 In fact, Moses said, ‘Jehovah* God will raise up for YOU from among YOUR brothers a prophet like me. YOU must listen to him according to all the things he speaks to YOU. 23 Indeed, any soul* that does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people.’+
24 And all the prophets, in fact, from Samuel on and those in succession, just as many as have spoken, have also plainly declared these days.

Note that Luke here quotes Moses - the source quote contains the Divine Name (YHWH = Jehovah in English) here (with some context)

Deuteronomy 18:14-19 (NW ref.)
“For these nations whom you are dispossessing used to listen to those practicing magic+ and to those who divine;+ but as for you, Jehovah your God has not given* you anything like this.+15 A prophet from your own midst, from your brothers, like me, is what Jehovah* your God will raise up for you—to him YOU people should listen+— 16in response to all that you asked of Jehovah* your God in Hoʹreb on the day of the congregation, saying, ‘Do not let me hear again the voice of Jehovah my God, and this great fire do not let me see anymore, that I may not die.’ 17 At that Jehovah said to me, ‘They have done well in speaking what they did. 18 A prophet I shall raise up for them from the midst of their brothers, like you;+ and I shall indeed put my words in his mouth, and he will certainly speak to them all that I shall command him. 19 And it must occur that the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name, I shall myself require an account from him.+

The operative phrase (vs. 18) quoting Jehovah: "I shall indeed put my words in his mouth."

On this point (#2) I will respond further after you respond.   But a point to think about: why is it that only one name is removed from Bible translations and NT Greek manuscripts - the name of the author of the Bible?

Offline Baruch

Re: The Bible (and it's many versions)
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2020, 07:11:30 AM »
Your computer can catch viruses on the Internet!
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't to that.

Re: The Bible (and it's many versions)
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2020, 09:56:29 AM »

1.   You start off by saying there is no "The Bible."   I expected you to go on about other sacred books like the Koran (aka Quran), etc.   Or to refer to various Jewish books like those in the Catholic Bible apocrypha or the Pseudepigrapha, etc.   However, you seem to be referring to what I was referring to as "the Bible."   I will respond further on that when you clarify.
The 'other' sacred (sacred connotes writings are from a divine source--there is no divine source so I reject the idea of anything being divine) writings are of no import to this topic.  And the label 'the bible' does not refer to a single document.  If you read any of the site I posted you'd know that.  The bible was crafted by different groups and individuals from a huge assortment of documents, most of which no longer exist except in title only;  the groups who did the crafting saw fit to destroy all the documents they did not want--or at least tried to.  Even today, there is no universal acceptance of what writings comprise the 'real' bible.  And your favorite version the NW is no different.  There is no autograph or original you can point to when you like to nit-pick verses and words.  You are simply relaying what your favorite word or sentence is without the ability to point to any autograph.  Yes, I am familiar with Strong's, but that is not based upon any original writings, for those do not exist; Strong's is an attempt to determine the best guess based upon guesses without any facts.  That is like proving the bible by the contents of the bible.  Of course all who use whatever bible is their favorite will insist it is THE bible--beliefs must be maintained using something.  Leaders are desperate to have an 'authority' to point to so that the masses have to follow their dictates.  This is prevalent in all religions--how else will the sheeple allow themselves to be fleeced time and time again??? 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: The Bible (and it's many versions)
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2020, 10:25:28 AM »


2.    You posted: "We don't know any of it's authors, with the exception of Paul." 

Actually, there is only one author - Jehovah - and I think we will agree that you do not know Jehovah (no offense meant).  However, since you mentioned Paul (I assume the apostle Paul), I think you meant writers - since Paul was the writer of a number of Bible books.   Paul explained that all Scripture is inspired of God - so the writers were not the author:
No, Newton, clearly there is many more than one author.  And the writings clearly were not written at the same time.  I reject your idea, concepts, belief that any god existed, ever--not even your favorite one.  Paul is historically said to have written 13 books of the NT.  Almost all now say he did not write Hebrews.  Another 6 are attributed to pseudo-Paul; writers using his name.  The last 6 are thought to have been written by him, although some of those writings appear to be a mashup of several different letters he wrote. 

Once again, there is no autograph even of Paul's writings.  So, the best guess is then used as though it is an autograph by most christians.  Of course Paul (and various other places in the bible) tells us that all scripture (once again, there is no scripture since there is no divine) is from god.  What better way than to claim your point of view is the only point of view, because, well, you know, god--so what I say is the ultimate.  BTW, scripture for Paul was the Old Testement and the Septuagint to be specific--not the bible we have today.  Understand Paul was dead and buried before any more of what we call the New Testement was crafted. 

You keep throwing bible verses at me as though that is any kind of proof of anything.  It isn't.  And I get the feeling you think I am totally unversed in what the bible is and says.  You think that if only I were to read that document I would come to your way of belief.  I have read the bible, cover to cover; I have used several books used by active seminaries and institutions that train ministers or priests.  In my studies I used books and sources that believe the bible is THE word of god; others that are neutral; and others who think god does not and never existed.  I wanted to understand all sides of the issue before I made up my mind.  You seem to think that if only I were to read and ponder upon what the bible says, I will see 'the light'.  Actually, for much of my life I yearned to do just that--see the light.  I have been a member of several churches and the last one I belonged to for about 10 years; 5 of those years I was on the church board serving as president (while we searched for a new minister), VP and board member.  I was active in most aspects of the church (not the choir for I cannot carry a tune--you don't even want to hear me hum)--Unity was that church.  I begged to see the light; and to help with that I did a deep study of both the bible and Jesus.  And you know, I did see the light.  Just not the light I wanted to see.  I think in many respects my study was deeper than yours in that I studied this from as many different points of view as I could.  The light did click on and it revealed that both your bible and jesus are fictions and used by men who wanted both power and wealth; they used both the bible and god to achieve those goals.  One witness to that is that many, many christian leaders tout trump as being in power because god wants that, so 'send me money and support so I can sent it along to trump'. 

Newton, you engage in wishful thinking (you call belief and faith); and I do realize you are much more educated about the internal content of your favorite book and therefore need to have it be 'authorized' by the only power in existence--your god.  That's fine for you.  But do not expect me to embrace your fictions and wishful thinking as being other than that.  Trying to prove the bible is not a fiction by using the bible itself is self-defeating in my eyes; I think you are afraid to do any real study of the subject.  I kind of resent you think I am ignorant of your beliefs and that is you could only show me the right set of verses, the scales will fall from my eyes and I will then be forced to see what you see as being THE truth.  Show me you know anything about the study of the history of the bible, not  what it contains or says.   
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?