How much is lying a part of Christianity?

Started by Jagella, March 08, 2020, 05:01:50 PM

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Gawdzilla Sama

Quote from: Gregory on March 19, 2020, 03:20:15 AM
Lying is nothing if it does no harm.  Telling someone that they are going to heaven when they are dying does no harm.
And thus the slippery slope is born.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Baruch

Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

SGOS

QuoteTelling someone that they are going to heaven when they are dying does no harm.

Years ago, I had the proverbial rich uncle (he didn't leave me a dime).  My parents thought he was too rough around the edges, and a bad influence, which was probably what I liked about him.  He swore like a sailor and was the first atheist I ever met, but he was always nice to me.  He was dying of cancer, and my aunt invited a minister to visit their lavish home and large country estate.  I guess a dying man needs a priest or a minister to save his soul at the last minute.  Uncle Harry told the minster he didn't believe in God, never needed one before, and sure as Hell, didn't want one now.  Whereupon, he told the minster to get out of his house.

Yep, Uncle Harry; I miss that old son-of-a-bitch.

Gawdzilla Sama

Boss Lady knows better than to call some son-a-bitch who's too lazy to work and "found a call to the ministry."
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Newtonian

Quote from: Hydra009 on March 17, 2020, 09:33:35 PM
Theist is a catch-all term for someone who believes in a god or gods.  Jehovah's Witnesses might conceive themselves as vastly different from the pack, but from an outsider perspective, it's just a different coat of paint on the same toilet.

I assume you do not know how different Jehovah's Witnesses are from other religions so I will post a few examples - I could detail the reasons if you all want me to - this is just a brief outline:

1.  We do not go to war.    Very few other religions do not allow their members to go to war.

2.  We do not vote or join any political party.   We all give our allegiance to only one government - with Jesus Christ as anointed king.  For example, under Hitler we did not heil Hitler nor join the Nazi party - many of us died because of our stand on this.   What other religion took this stand?   See the website of the United States Holocaust museum in Washington D.C. for documentation, for example:

https://www.ushmm.org/search/results/?q=Jehovah%27s+Witnesses

3.  We do not salute any flag of any human government.  See the United States Supreme court decisions on this.

4.  We do not believe in the doctrine of the immortality of the human soul.   For example, we believe Jesus actually died, not that only is body died.   The Bible teaches that at death we return to the 'dust' of the ground.   We do believe in resurrection from death.   See Ezekiel 18:4 (KJV - the soul dies); Ecclesiastes 9:5,10 (the dead are conscious of nothing).

5.  We do not believe in the trinity doctrine.

6.  We do not pass a collection plate at our meetings.   Our elders are not paid for our ministry since we follow Jesus Christ who also was not paid for his ministry.

And much more - just a few examples showing we are not the same as most religions.

Newtonian

#95
Quote from: Jagella on March 19, 2020, 09:07:34 AM
Belief in a post-life heaven may lead to complacency in this life. People may be less likely to try to solve problems and exploit resources to maximize well-being. Moreover, preaching a ticket to heaven exclusive to one religion may lead to confusion and division among people of all religions. Even violence may occur if people fear that others may not make it to their heaven.

So belief in heaven can and often has led to hell on earth.

For those of my religion, one definition of heaven is our universe - see Genesis 1:1 which says God created the heavens and earth.   We do not believe humans were created to live in heaven - in fact our form of life would not  survive in heaven.

Most of Jehovah's Witnesses have the hope of living forever on planet earth, as stated in Psalms 37:29 after God does away with death (Revelation 21:4 "death will be no more.").

Btw - it is really the doctrine of Hell Fire which has led to the violence in Christendom.  For example, during the dark ages people were burned at the stake since they believed their victims were going into eternal fire anyway.

Gawdzilla Sama

Quote from: Newtonian on March 21, 2020, 09:13:38 AM
I assume you do not know how different Jehovah's Witnesses are from other religions so I will post a few examples - I could detail the reasons if you all want me to - this is just a brief outline:

1.  We do not go to war.    Very few other religions do not allow their members to go to war.

2.  We do not vote or join any political party.   We all give our allegiance to only one government - with Jesus Christ as anointed king.  For example, under Hitler we did not heil Hitler nor join the Nazi party - many of us died because of our stand on this.   What other religion took this stand?   See the website of the United States Holocaust museum in Washington D.C. for documentation, for example:

https://www.ushmm.org/search/results/?q=Jehovah%27s+Witnesses

3.  We do not salute any flag of any human government.  See the United States Supreme court decisions on this.

4.  We do not believe in the doctrine of the immortality of the human soul.   For example, we believe Jesus actually died, not that only is body died.   The Bible teaches that at death we return to the 'dust' of the ground.   We do believe in resurrection from death.   See Ezekiel 18:4 (KJV - the soul dies); Ecclesiastes 9:5,10 (the dead are conscious of nothing).

5.  We do not believe in the trinity doctrine.

6.  We do not pass a collection plate at our meetings.   Our elders are not paid for our ministry since we follow Jesus Christ who also was not paid for his ministry.

And much more - just a few examples showing we are not the same as most religions.
Quibbles. You have an imaginary friend and can't grow up.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Newtonian

Quote from: Jagella on March 16, 2020, 01:28:36 PM
Don't feel bad. Many groups have their critics and enemies. We atheists, for example, are seen by many Americans as no better than rapists.

I do that too. One difference between us, however, is that I do not make a special exception for Jehovah's Witnesses. Their lies and deceptions are every bit as bad as any other Christian sect and should be exposed too.

Many Christians nowadays are well aware of the pagan origins of Christmas. I suppose most Christians nevertheless like the idea of celebrating the birth of Christ, and since the date and circumstances of Jesus' birth are unknown, December 25 is as good as any other day of the year.

While eggs and bunnies in baskets may be the work of the Devil, it doesn't appear to harm anybody's faith in the resurrection of Christ.

I understand that some Christians interpret parts of the Bible as laying out the triune God. Based on my own study of the Bible, it posits three gods: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

The Bible doesn't need to be logical; it just needs to convert people.

But as far as life after death is concerned, Jesus seemed to believe in it as we read in Luke 16:23-25.

1.  The Bible does say shepherds were outside with their flocks when Jesus was born.  In that climate December 25th would be cold.  Actual Biblical evidence points to Jesus' birth being about October 1st.  In that climate October 1st is cooler, but not cold.

More important, while the Bible does give the day and even the hour of Jesus' death, it does not state the day of Jesus' birth.   If Jesus wanted us to observe his birthday he would have given us the date of his birth.

2.  My religion does not have any lies or deceptions - but feel free to post what specifically you are referring to.

3.  The Bible does not teach us to observe the day of Jesus' resurrection.   And the Bible (Passover does not = Easter) has nothing to do with worship of the goddess of fertility (Eostre in ancient England)

4.  Jesus stated his Father was greater than (not equal to) him(John 14:28).   Also the Bible teaches that Jesus died (as foretold in Isaiah 53:10,12) whereas God cannot die.

5.  Faith as taught in the Bible requires proof.   The original Greek for Hebrews 11:1 shows that convincing evidence is required.  KJV - 1 Thessalonians 5:21 "prove all things."

6. Luke 16:23-25 is a parable, which I could prove if you would like me too.  If interpreted literally it would contradict Scripture:

Ecclesiastes 9:5
(KJV)  For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing,

If literal, what good would a drop of water do?   The parable was condemning the religious leaders of that time who were "money lovers" (Luke 16:14) who were tormented by Jesus' teachings as he exposed their hypocrisy.   Watering down the truth even by one drop would have stopped this torment - for then Jesus would also have taught a  lie.

I can detail what this parable means if you would like me to.  In short, the religious leaders only gave crumb of truths (considering them like dogs) to the humble Jews of that time - Jesus changed that - tormenting the religious leaders by exposing them while he gave the lowly Jews a spiritual feast!

Gawdzilla Sama

If you don't believe people lie about being Christian just observe how many of them act in the manner Christians are supposed to act. EOF
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Newtonian

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on March 21, 2020, 10:35:33 AM
If you don't believe people lie about being Christian just observe how many of them act in the manner Christians are supposed to act. EOF

Gandhi observed the same thing about so-called Christians - not following what Jesus actually taught - e.g. for us to love our enemies (Matthew 5:44).

Gawdzilla Sama

Quote from: Newtonian on March 21, 2020, 11:38:46 AM
Gandhi observed the same thing about so-called Christians - not following what Jesus actually taught - e.g. for us to love our enemies (Matthew 5:44).
And to not act like utter assholes. Pity the base material is humans.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Newtonian

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on March 21, 2020, 12:14:57 PM
And to not act like utter assholes. Pity the base material is humans.

Does your comment indicate you do not believe in extraterrestrial life forms of superior intelligence to humans?

aitm

Come on Zilla, surely if you can imagine shit it must be true....
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Jagella

Quote from: Newtonian on March 21, 2020, 10:01:03 AMThe Bible does say shepherds were outside with their flocks when Jesus was born.  In that climate December 25th would be cold.  Actual Biblical evidence points to Jesus' birth being about October 1st.  In that climate October 1st is cooler, but not cold.

I just did some fact checking, and according to that source temperatures in Israel are mild in December the average lows a balmy 54 degrees Fahrenheit. So shepherds might very well be tending their flocks at night in December, and therefore Jesus could have been born on December 25.

Always check your facts!

QuoteMore important, while the Bible does give the day and even the hour of Jesus' death, it does not state the day of Jesus' birth.

Yes. The Bible omits a lot of important details. It's a very confusing book.

So what was the date of Jesus' death?

QuoteIf Jesus wanted us to observe his birthday he would have given us the date of his birth.

I suppose, but nowhere does the Bible forbid celebrating birthdays or Christmas for that matter.

QuoteMy religion does not have any lies or deceptions...

Have you ever really checked to see? Religious people are not known for critical thinking.

Quote...but feel free to post what specifically you are referring to.

You can find tons of revealing evidence detailing the Watchtower's many deceptions on any search engine or on YouTube. Have you tried these resources?

But years before I had internet access at home, I made a trip to my local public library to investigate the Watchtower book, Life: How did it get here? Using the sources cited in that book I discovered that the writer(s) do indeed deliberately misquote scientists to make it appear that they have doubts about evolution!

This deception is no mere little white lie on the part of the Watchtower; it can do a tremendous amount of harm to attack science that way. The Theory of Evolution is a very important theory needed to safeguard human well-being. We need Darwin's theory to understand how disease spreads, and that includes the current corona virus pandemic.

I have pointed out this deception to two Jehovah's Witnesses I know personally, and it made no difference to them. Apparently truth cannot overcome blind faith.

QuoteThe Bible does not teach us to observe the day of Jesus' resurrection.

It doesn't tell anybody to build kingdom halls either, but that doesn't stop the Watchtower! Your mistake in logic is to conclude that if an action is not mandated, then it is forbidden. The Bible failing to command that Easter be celebrated is no injunction against Easter.

QuoteJesus stated his Father was greater than (not equal to) him(John 14:28).   Also the Bible teaches that Jesus died (as foretold in Isaiah 53:10,12) whereas God cannot die.

The New Testament is confused over the deity of Christ. In some places it appears that Jesus was not God, and in other passages he is presented as God. The answer to this paradox is that the dogma of Jesus being God evolved. In the earliest stages of Christianity, Jesus was not believed to be God. Later Christians remodeled him as the all-mighty.

QuoteFaith as taught in the Bible requires proof.

What proof do you have for the virgin birth?

QuoteLuke 16:23-25 is a parable...

Parables normally contain real-world elements. Do you think that nobody sows seeds because Jesus taught a parable about it? Obviously not, and of course the parable of the rich man being tortured in fire was meant to indoctrinate people into believing that torture by fire awaits anybody who displeases Jehovah. Yes, hell and the afterlife are fictional, but this parable is meant as a real warning to scare people into belief.

QuoteIf interpreted literally it would contradict Scripture:

Ecclesiastes 9:5
(KJV)  For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing,

Hold on there--you're saying that you interpret the Bible to avoid recognizing contradictions in it! Is that an example of the honesty of Jehovah's Witnesses? Twist the Bible to make it appear consistent?

QuoteThe parable was condemning the religious leaders of that time who were "money lovers" (Luke 16:14) who were tormented by Jesus' teachings as he exposed their hypocrisy.

By all means beware money-loving religious leaders. A really good example of their hypocrisy is to claim that they speak for all-mighty Jehovah, and then they pitch for funds! If they really represented Jehovah, then they wouldn't need to beg for money.


aitm

The babble is full of “parables” when it contradicts truths. But never a parable when it I is mere conjecture and unprovable...ala Samson...et al.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust