Previously 'The big ol' 2020 debate', turned Baruch's personal waste bin.

Started by Mr.Obvious, January 27, 2020, 06:37:30 AM

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Hydra009

Quote from: Shiranu on April 08, 2020, 10:43:10 PM
One last thing I forgot to mention...

I have the "privilege" of living in a state where my vote doesn't matter anyways. I could vote for Micky Mouse and it would make just as much difference. I will most likely just write Bernie in, because he at least ran on a campaign of giving my vote a voice. Biden has not.
Texas?  Isn't that a swing state? That's what they tell me but strangely, it always seems to go red.  Maybe the locals aren't in the know?

Shiranu

#421
Quote from: Hydra009 on April 08, 2020, 10:55:04 PM
Texas?  Isn't that a swing state? That's what they tell me but strangely, it always seems to go red.  Maybe the locals aren't in the know?

I honestly don't know. I feel like we are becoming one, but it's also based on our minority and youth population, both of which don't generally vote.

"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

Hydra009

And the good news keeps rolling in: Biden enters the general election about where Hillary Clinton did in 2016

I gotta say, those people who insist that Biden has "electability" had better be right.  Cause if they're wrong, they may have just screwed America into enduring Trump's disgusting reign for another four years.

GSOgymrat

Quote from: Hydra009 on April 08, 2020, 11:31:51 PM
And the good news keeps rolling in: Biden enters the geoneral election about where Hillary Clinton did in 2016

I gotta say, those people who insist that Biden has "electability" had better be right.  Cause if they're wrong, they may have just screwed America into enduring Trump's disgusting reign for another four years.

I don't know what is going to happen with the election. Most Democrats I know voted against Sanders not for Biden. I've talked to passionate supporters of Bernie, Buttigieg, Klobuchar, Warren, Yang and Trump but yet to meet an enthusiastic Biden supporter. I also wonder if Biden, Bernie or Trump will become ill before November given the number of people predicted to be exposed to COVID-19, the ages of the candidates, their medical conditions and the number of people with whom they interact. The infection doesn't have to be lethal to take them out of the race.


trdsf

Quote from: Shiranu on April 08, 2020, 07:41:13 PM
Never said it would be.
Could've fooled me the way you're carrying on.  So your candidate didn't win.  Wah.  Neither did three of mine.  Get over it, it's time to deal with the world the way it turned out instead of the way you wanted it to turn out.

You don't like the top of the ticket?  Fine, don't care, I don't either especially.  Find some local, county and state candidates you can get behind instead of bitching and moaning.
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Hydra009

#425
Quote from: GSOgymrat on April 09, 2020, 12:04:35 AMMost Democrats I know voted against Sanders not for Biden. I've talked to passionate supporters of Bernie, Buttigieg, Klobuchar, Warren, Yang and Trump but yet to meet an enthusiastic Biden supporter.
That's really sad.  If you're not fighting for something, you've already lost.  I thought we learned that lesson in 2016.  Apparently, it didn't stick.  I suppose we'll have to learn it all over again.

QuoteI also wonder if Biden, Bernie or Trump will become ill before November given the number of people predicted to be exposed to COVID-19, the ages of the candidates, their medical conditions and the number of people with whom they interact. The infection doesn't have to be lethal to take them out of the race.
Well, Trump falsified his own physical, so he could be walking around with a T-virus infection and we'd never know until he takes a chunk out of someone's neck.  He's dealt with this coroavirus crisis on a personal and professional level with all the genius one would expect from a guy who stares directly at a solar eclipse.

Biden's been doing a good job staying isolated, so he should be okay so long as he remembers to maintain that social distance, which has historically been hard for him.

I'm not particularly worried about either of them.  It's the people's health that's the problem.  People are dying in droves and it's I take no responsibility this and how are you going to pay for it that.  It really would have been nice to have someone institute some sort of social safety net prior to this disaster.  But where would we find someone like that?

Shiranu

#426
QuoteGet over it, it's time to deal with the world the way it turned out instead of the way you wanted it to turn out.

I am.

If my option is to vote for a racist, rapist who doesn't represent my interests, or a racist, accused rapist who doesn't represent my interests, I will deal with it in the way that seems morally right to me; vote for neither of them.

- Joe Biden has family ties to pharmaceutical companies and has faced allegations of using those ties to enrich his brother.

- Joe Biden was a firm supporter in getting Scalia, one of the worst Justices in American history, on the court. Then when it became unpopular, he denounced him. Then when Scalia died, he went on and on about how great of person he was.

- Joe Biden has multiple allegations of sexual harassment against him, including one rape allegation, as well as multiple clips of him inappropriately handling little girls.

- Joe Biden's supporters have literally spent months insulting people like me, and now that Bernie has dropped out are demanding that I owe them my support.

- Joe Biden has a very sketchy record on African-Americans, from being against anti-segregation laws (such as voting against forcing schools to reveal the ethnic makeup of their students so the Fed couldn't punish schools resisting integration) or saying shit like...

Quote from: 1975, Washington Post“What it says is, ‘In order for your child with curly black hair, brown eyes, and dark skin to be able to learn anything, he needs to sit next to my blond-haired, blue-eyed son.’ That’s racist!”

Quote from: 1975, NPR“I think the concept of busing … that we are going to integrate people so that they all have the same access and they learn to grow up with one another and all the rest, is a rejection of the whole movement of black pride … a rejection of the entire black awareness concept, where black is beautiful, black culture should be studied; and the cultural awareness of the importance of their own identity, their own individuality.”

In 2007, when presented with evidence that busing was incredibly effective at increasing the educational levels of African Americans, he continued to say that he was in the right for saying those things.

His criminal law record is also horrendous as well, with his signature bill leading to tens of thousands of African Americans being incarcerated at a massively disproportionate ratio to whites, and with harsher penalties than before.

Oh, and of course he said this...

Quote“Former Vice President Joe Biden is facing increased scrutiny over his record on busing and racial issues, and this week old comments resurfaced in which he said, in 1977, that busing for the purpose of desegregation would cause his children to ‘grow up in a racial jungle.

I could go on, but you get the point.

Look, if you want to vote for him... I honestly have no problem with that. But I keep on being told the racist, senile and accused sexual harasser and rapist is "owed" my vote because he is not Trump and that I'm in the wrong for not just bowing down and licking his boots. That's absolute bullshit, and you know it.

Vote for whoever the fuck you want, but don't try to shame me because I find them to be disgusting candidates.

Or better yet, GIVE ME A GOOD REASON TO VOTE FOR BIDEN OTHER THAN "ORANGE MAN BADDDDD!!!".

Shit, I don't mind his environmental proposals and infrastructure plans... some of them actually sound pretty good, if he actually stays true to them. But I need more than that, and not one person who has told me to vote for Biden has actually been able to point to a policy of his that should sway my vote.
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

GSOgymrat

#427
Quote from: Hydra009 on April 09, 2020, 12:50:49 AM
That's really sad.  If you're not fighting for something, you've already lost.  I thought we learned that lesson in 2016.

Are you fighting for Biden now that Sanders has dropped out? I'm supporting Biden. Now that Bernie has dropped out I'm ordering a Biden bumper sticker to put over my Yang sticker. My candidate didn't win, I think Biden is better than Trump and that is how I will vote.

For those who can't in good conscience vote for Biden, don't vote for him. However remember voting for Biden isn't just voting for the man but for the Democratic party. The Republicans are specifically targeting reproductive rights and are putting justices in place at various levels who are morally opposed to abortion. Trump and the Republicans are planning to cut social security. The Democrats have a much better track record on environmental protection and supporting measures to address climate change. Republicans routinely argue that racism in America doesn't even exist while Democrats at least recognize the problem. Trump wants to get rid of the ACA and has no plan to expand access to healthcare. Trump has helped the wealthy maintain and expand their fortunes at every opportunity. If these are things you care about then I would urge you to consider the consequences of another four years of Republican control of the executive branch.

Shiranu

#428
QuoteHowever remember voting for Biden isn't just voting for the man but for the Democratic party.

And that's the problem; the Democratic party doesn't represent the voter anymore than the Republican party. Shit, I would say the Republican party if anything represents it's voters better than the Dems do... Republicans vote for them BECAUSE of their flaws and shitty views, while Dems vote for the party because they hope they will be progressive and lead to real change just to be let down election after election after election.


The more votes a "moderate" like Biden gets (and by moderate, I mean by American standards, so slightly right-wing by global standards), the more the Dem party realises that it's okay to fuck over progressives and move further right.

QuoteTrump and the Republicans are planning to cut social security.

Biden has voted along with them several times throughout his career.

QuoteRepublicans routinely argue that racism in America doesn't even exist while Democrats at least recognize the problem.

Biden doesn't seem to, given that he was making racist remarks as recently as recently as... *checks notes*... this election cycle.

QuoteTrump wants to get rid of the ACA and has no plan to expand access to healthcare.

Don't get me wrong, I realise people do benefit from the ACA and I don't want to see them taken off it, but at the same time me and basically everyone else I know is still uninsured (unless their parents have insurance) because we are "too wealthy" to apply for government aide and too poor to actually afford healthcare.

QuoteTrump has helped the wealthy maintain and expand their fortunes at every opportunity.

And the Democrats haven't? The wage gap grew under Clinton/Obama, the amount of Americans in debt while the rich got richer grew under Clinton/Obama... it's been a long while since we didn't have a Wall Street approved candidate.

The environment is the only one I give him real credit on, but we also know just how cheap talk is. Especially since he has campaigned for Republicans in the past and Republican donors started sending him donations this election as well, knowing he aligned with their views much more than most.

Again, I'm not saying don't vote for Biden... but for the love of god, can someone please give me a reason to vote for him other than, "At least he isn't Trump!"? It's depressing to see that even here it's just "Us vs Them".
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

Shiranu

Let me reword it in a shorter way;

You are asking me to choose the "lesser of two evil" who has a long tract record of segregationist racism and sexual harassment, who seems to be in a state of mental decline and who will continue the status quo that has left me, my family, my friends and millions of other Americans struggling economically and mentally. If that's the "lesser", then either way I'm fucked.

Both of them have their boots on my throat and are crushing down, and neither of them have any intention of letting off.

Perhaps if things get worse quicker, people will grow more desperate quicker and angry enough to frighten them into make meaningful change. But the way I see it, the guy putting a little less force on me isn't going to suddenly stop just because I praised him for not being as bad as the other guy. He will just feel more emboldened to keep on going.
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

GSOgymrat

If you choose to vote, there are two viable options and voters pick the one they dislike the least. I've explained why I prefer Biden to Trump. I too wish the options were different, I tried to make a difference, but this is where we are. It's a frustrating system and I don't expect you to be happy about it. I completely understand if you decide to abstain.

SGOS

Quote from: GSOgymrat on April 09, 2020, 05:19:10 AM
If you choose to vote, there are two viable options and voters pick the one they dislike the least. I've explained why I prefer Biden to Trump. I too wish the options were different, I tried to make a difference, but this is where we are. It's a frustrating system and I don't expect you to be happy about it. I completely understand if you decide to abstain.
Shiranu actually reflects much of my own thinking.  I don't like the idea of not voting.  I want to vote.  But the lesser of two evils doesn't motivate me.  Yeah, maybe Biden is better than Trump, but neither Biden or Hillary struck me as that much better, and both seemed to be content with an image that was just better than Trump and nothing more.  No one is going to motivate me to become energized by just being better than Trump.  That bar is far too low for me to bother with, and the lesser of two evils argument from the official Democratic Party seems more like a guilt trip than a valid argument.  I think the lesser of evils seems like an argument to those who are with the party.  I'm not with the party, but I'm not the one who left.  The party left me, and distances itself farther every year.  I no longer have a sense of affiliation, and I don't have the energy or the interest to run along with them in their rush to their eventual self destruction.  I don't know, maybe America will eventually come together as unified conservative nation, and I wish us well, but I won't be sending anyone a campaign contribution to help that cause.

Hydra009

#432
Quote from: GSOgymrat on April 09, 2020, 03:04:26 AM
Are you fighting for Biden now that Sanders has dropped out?
Yes.  I intend to.  I have already said as much.  I just resent the fact that Biden didn't win this on his own power (reportedly, Obama's intervention in getting virtually everyone else to drop out at just the right moment was pivotal) and almost no Biden supporter is talking policy or trying to meet liberals halfway on policy.

Instead, it's the worn-out lesser of two evils argument, which I have to warn you, has been losing effectiveness every year and is never going to win over people who don't already vote blue by default - and those are exactly the people we need.

QuoteIf these are things you care about then I would urge you to consider the consequences of another four years of Republican control of the executive branch.
Hey, I'm not the one who just gave them a boost by giving them an easy target, an enthusiasm gap, and a limited appeal outside of the core base of "moderate" democrats.  Might as well given Trump the presidency on a silver platter.

A lot of people vote their convictions.  Not enough of them during the primary, evidently.  But people who care passionately about Medicare For All are going to ask you why they should support a candidate who doesn't support that.  You're going to have to come up with a much better argument than pointing out the obvious fact that Dems score better on abortion.

But as it turns out, I have been watching the candidates stances on global warming:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/09/climate/climate-change-biden.html

It's no Green New Deal, but cutting greehouse emissions by 2050 is an acceptable plan.  Sure beats the Drill, Baby, Drill that we've gotten with Trump.

Biden supporters really ought to consider leaning into stuff like this - actually talking policy instead of lesser of two evils arguments and attempting to shame liberals into compliance.  They'd win over a lot more people that way.

trdsf

I am just so.  Fucking.  Tired.  of politics in this country.  It used to be interesting, now it's just nauseating.  I'm tired of Republican fascism and their knuckledragger supporters lining up droolingly behind them without one functioning brain cell to call their own.  I'm tired of Democrats reliably forming a circular firing squad while their knuckledragger supporters scatter like a herd of cats on speed, so wrapped up in their personal agendas that their individual 'big pictures' measure one pixel wide and one pixel high.  I'm tired of news geared towards driving their owners' bottom line rather than actual journalism.

So.

Fucking.

Tired.
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Baruch

Quote from: Hydra009 on April 08, 2020, 11:31:51 PM
And the good news keeps rolling in: Biden enters the general election about where Hillary Clinton did in 2016

I gotta say, those people who insist that Biden has "electability" had better be right.  Cause if they're wrong, they may have just screwed America into enduring Trump's disgusting reign for another four years.

Hillary had much more genuine negatives than Biden.  If Biden picks Kamala Harris, the Black community will vote more in 2020 than in 2016, and they will ignore that Harris' ancestry is from Jamaica, where some of her ancestors were slavers.  I would rather have the pseudo-Convention choose Gov Cuomo ... he seems effective.
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Táadoo ánít’iní.
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Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.