Previously 'The big ol' 2020 debate', turned Baruch's personal waste bin.

[Unbeliever]

But surely God is in control, right? Surely God wouldn't let the world go to hell due to such a simple thing as a virus, would he?

I wonder how many people really believe that crap. I bet no one really does. But they'll pray all day and twice on Sundays anyway.

[GSOgymrat]

I think you are right.  Our leaders are beholding to the wealth of the country, centrist or not.  It's about money.  That said, I'm not sure what "centrist" means.  OK, it's the center, but it doesn't seem like it's the center for most people, for the leadership yes, for the people I'm in doubt.  If it does in fact reflect the actual center, It's easy to understand why Trump is president.

Perhaps I should have said moderates. I was referring to is how politicians identify and vote. According to Gallup in 2019, this is how Americans identify themselves.



My concern is whether Sanders can convince members of Congress who identify as moderate or conservative to support his legislation, particularly Medicare For All, which is the issue I care most about.

I've pretty consistently said the "American left" is at best central, and the "American right" is pretty far right, and I still hold to that... and I do think that applies to the voters just as much as the politicians, at least on what is considered "left".

We are an incredibly conservative country, particularly once you get away from the coasts.

I agree that Americans are very conservative when you leave the major metropolitan areas. I don't know where America falls in a list of the other countries in the world regarding liberal and conservative governments and cultural values.

[SGOS]

With moderates and conservatives holding 70% of the vote, it's likely that a huge number of democratic politicians will not represent liberal values. So no news there.  We already know that, and the Trump phenomenon is not really an aberration. Sanders at 26% is in line with 26% of the voters identifying as liberal.  The rest of the contenders are splitting the rest of the vote, but I already see a flaw in my reasoning, because your chart shows America's views, not Democrat's views.  I think that might yield different results.

Yet four years ago, a hypothetical poll showed Sanders winning against Trump, but 4 years ago was a bad year for pollsters as we all know.

[Baruch]

It is delusional to label voters as "anything" .. we don't have anything in common.  Usually I have been liberal on domestic policy and conservative on foreign policy.

[Baruch]

I've pretty consistently said the "American left" is at best central, and the "American right" is pretty far right, and I still hold to that... and I do think that applies to the voters just as much as the politicians, at least on what is considered "left".

We are an incredibly conservative country, particularly once you get away from the coasts.

That is why tsunamis are good things ;-)

[Baruch]

"WaPo Claims Elites Should Run Elections; Quietly Edits Article After Public Outrage Ensues" .. the truth is getting harder to hide.  Support your local billionaire, including the one at WaPo.

[Shiranu]

Bloomberg: "Yes, I should exist. I worked hard for my money."

Fuck. Off.

Not a single billionaire "worked hard" to be where they are, they cheated the system, they cheated their employees and they cheated their fellow citizens.

I despise when billionaires use that phrase with a passion.

[SGOS]

It's questionable whether anyone that makes $5,000/hr works that hard. I'm sure they are clever enough, but I'm not sure that has much to do with being presidential.

[Hydra009]

It's literally impossible to get that wealthy by normal means.  You have to do some serious wealth redistribution against the lower classes to "earn" the sort of lifestyle where you can buy the Presidency on a whim.

[Baruch]

Bloomberg: "Yes, I should exist. I worked hard for my money."

Fuck. Off.

Not a single billionaire "worked hard" to be where they are, they cheated the system, they cheated their employees and they cheated their fellow citizens.

I despise when billionaires use that phrase with a passion.

Bloomberg et al, got bailout in 2008/2009 from Bush/Obama.  And Bloomberg et al have profited a lot from the always expanding China trade.

Some businessmen are workaholics.  But is that work?

Top tax rate before Saint JFK?

"The top marginal tax rate in 1960 was 91%, which applied to income over $200,000 (for single filers) or $400,000 (for married filers) â€" thresholds which correspond to approximately $1.5 million and $3 million, respectively, in today's dollars. Approximately 0.00235% of households had income taxed at the top rate."

Son of head of Irish-America Mafia changed that.

[PopeyesPappy]

It's literally impossible to get that wealthy by normal means.  You have to do some serious wealth redistribution against the lower classes to "earn" the sort of lifestyle where you can buy the Presidency on a whim.

This seems to be a serious misunderstanding of how the richest of the rich accumulate their wealth. Bezos, Gates, Buffett, Zuckerberg, and yes even Bloomberg didn’t get where they are by paying themselves billions in salaries. They got there by starting businesses and growing them.

Their wealth isn’t the result of redistribution. It is the result of creating wealth from thin air. The companies were worth nothing when they were started. Now they are worth trillions. These people don’t have billions of dollars sitting in vaults either. Most of their wealth only exists on stock exchange balance sheets.

As far as this year’s democrat presidential candidates go, I think Biden and possibly Bloomberg are probably the only ones with a chance at beating Trump. I don’t believe most of the rest of the front runners can pull in enough of the moderate vote to do the job. If you look at GSOgymrat’s chart above and do the math you will see that the democratic nominee will need to get more than 62% of the moderate vote to win the popular electrician. I don’t see most of this year’s front runners being able to do that.

As far as personal choice goes, I don’t like any of them. I’ll probably vote for any of them over Trump except for Bloomberg. I’ll either vote Green Party or just leave my presidential ballot blank if he ends up with the nomination.

[GSOgymrat]

Well, that was a lively debate. I didn't understand Bloomberg's appeal before and I still don't understand it. He did make one point that I think doesn't get expressed enough-- the reason we have billionaires in America is because Congress and the American people allowed it. The 99% could have controlled the 1%. Americans allowed their representatives to approve tax codes, bailouts, and subsidies and didn't hold them accountable. I believe in capitalism and I believe the purpose of government is to represent the public good and put limits on corporations just as we put limits on the actions of individuals. Unfortunately, we are in a political situation similar to the climate situation where we have been complacent to the point that turning the ship around is extremely difficult, especially when there is a sizable percentage of Americans who don't believe we are on the wrong course.

[Hydra009]

Their wealth isn’t the result of redistribution. It is the result of creating wealth from thin air.

Early april fools joke?

When companies receive corporate welfare from the government (or subsidies, or wars on their behalf), who do you think foots the bill?

And don't you think that massively raising prices on products/services that are basically indispensible to the middle class - college, healthcare, housing - and funneling that mostly to a few very rich individuals consitutes wealth redistrubution? 

Hell, Trump seems to using his position as President to pursue an awful lot of business deals abroad and to conduct government business at places he owns.  Who pays for that?  Does that money just appear out of thin air?

The companies were worth nothing when they were started. Now they are worth trillions.

And who do you think ultimately generates those profits, day in and day out?  Does Bezos personally ship those packages?  I mean, ffs, an employee literally died in one of those warehouses and they didn't even shut it down for the day, they were told to just keep going as if nothing happened.

It takes an awfully myopic mindest to not notice the brutal reality of how these vast fortunes are made.  Some do it comparitively ethically, but I gotta tell ya, it's not all sunshine and gumdrops, and no one waves a magic wand and creates wealth out of thin air

[Hydra009]

Well, that was a lively debate.

https://youtu.be/QD4csGWPo6o

Tell me about it.  Bloomberg got rocked so hard by Warren and others that I don't see how any self-respecting democrat could possibly vote for him now.

I didn't understand Bloomberg's appeal before and I still don't understand it.

I do.  Spending hundreds of milllions of dollars on ads buys you a lot of friends.

And if you're one of those low-information voters that these ads prey upon, you probably don't even know why people are going after the guy.  All you know is that he says he doesn't like [bad thing] and will "get it done" and that seems appealing enough.

Plus, Bloomberg coverage is pretty positive at Bloomberg.com.  Strange how that works out.

He did make one point that I think doesn't get expressed enough-- the reason we have billionaires in America is because Congress and the American people allowed it. The 99% could have controlled the 1%. Americans allowed their representatives to approve tax codes, bailouts, and subsidies and didn't hold them accountable.

Exactly.  Now, more than ever, we desperately need a candidate that will address this.  Specifically, someone who will work to combat Citizens United.  Unless we work together to claw back our democracy, we will never have to worry about elections again.

[GSOgymrat]

Specifically, someone who will work to combat Citizens United.  Unless we work together to claw back our democracy, we will never have to worry about elections again.

Agreed. As I said before, like climate change I don't think the average American understands how far we have gone down this road. If we have four more years of Trump and the Republican's (Trump is the symptom of a greater problem) pro-corporate policies and judicial appointments it will be decades, if ever, to have a government that protects the public good and the middle and lower classes.