A new perspective on this thing that we know as God.

Started by od19g6, December 31, 2019, 05:13:18 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Mike Cl

Quote from: od19g6 on January 07, 2020, 03:06:16 PM
But the grand point is that: animals can "never" teach humans while humans "always" teaches animals.
Once again totally wrong.  Well, mostly wrong.  But, you cannot teach me anything--and I mean from tying a shoelace to algebra--UNLESS I want to learn.  You are mostly wrong in that I can teach my dogs to sit--but they wanted to learn.  And I have learned much from my dogs over the years--unconditional love for instance.  Animals in the wild learn all the time.  When I was in grade school, I was told that humans were the only tool makers in all of creation.  Clearly that is not true--hundreds of species of animals use tools.  Humans ARE animals.  Period.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

od19g6

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on January 07, 2020, 04:05:58 PM
Then what's the point of said prayer?
God's will be done regardless. Right?

Also, what's the point of him creating people in such a way that, by his will, they are against his will?
Maybe it's cause i'm not allknowing, but I don't see the sense in that.
Prayer exists to strengthen our divine / spiritual reality and to have communion with God. God can also answer the prayer of the individual.
The be honest with you really,  God's will is each Prophet / Messenger that He manifest and each revelation that comes in every age.


Mike Cl

Quote from: od19g6 on January 07, 2020, 03:09:11 PM
Yes, I believe in the power of prayer.
God's will be done regardless of who is against it.
Prayer is simply wishful thinking.  god's will is never done because god isn't.  Your wishful belief makes it seem so to you; but apparently you are willfully blind and ignorant.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Mike Cl

Quote from: od19g6 on January 07, 2020, 03:56:24 PM

Look, I'm baha'i,
And the flagship word of the baha'i faith is "unity."
It really doesn't matter what another human being believes in, as long as we respect each other as fellow human beings and believe is or not, that's all that matters to a baha'i. It just that simple.
That why we believe in the planetary unity of the human species. When the unity of humanity is firmly established the will world peace arrive.
Yeah, I know you are baha'i--caught that early on.  Yes, I agree with you in this last paragraph.  I understand that when humans include all cultures, colors and beliefs/thinking, then there will be peace.  But I don't need a fictional god to point that out. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Mr.Obvious

Quote from: od19g6 on January 07, 2020, 04:25:56 PM
Prayer exists to strengthen our divine / spiritual reality and to have communion with God. God can also answer the prayer of the individual.
The be honest with you really,  God's will is each Prophet / Messenger that He manifest and each revelation that comes in every age.

Making yourself feel better through supposedly talking to god is one thing. But him supposedly 'answering' prayer, is another thing entirely.
Either he changes his will, based on what you ask for.
Or he always intended to make it so.
Which implies he also willed you to ask for it so that he would 'answer' it.
Which also means he wills you to ask for things he doesn't answer or provide. Unless you claim that every prayer ever is answered.
Which would make that part of the whole prayer system rather asinine and ultimately pointless.

Omni-traits are a tricky thing, no?
Especially if you have the audacity to combine them.
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

Unbeliever

Quote from: Peter O'Toole
When did I realize I was God? Well, I was praying and I suddenly realized I was talking to myself.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Sal1981

Quote from: od19g6 on January 07, 2020, 03:06:16 PM
But the grand point is that: animals can "never" teach humans while humans "always" teaches animals.
You could think that, but you would be wrong.

I can easily imagine a scenario where an animal teaches a human some trick, intended or not.

od19g6

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on January 07, 2020, 04:49:01 PM
Making yourself feel better through supposedly talking to god is one thing. But him supposedly 'answering' prayer, is another thing entirely.
Either he changes his will, based on what you ask for.
Or he always intended to make it so.
Which implies he also willed you to ask for it so that he would 'answer' it.
Which also means he wills you to ask for things he doesn't answer or provide. Unless you claim that every prayer ever is answered.
Which would make that part of the whole prayer system rather asinine and ultimately pointless.

Omni-traits are a tricky thing, no?
Especially if you have the audacity to combine them.
Is kind of simple.
Technically God can do anything It wants. God is beyond the physical reality.

God can answer the prayer of the individual at any time and in any way.

God's will is mainly the divine revelations that come in every age throughout human history and evolution.

It's not really about someone "disrupting" God's will, it going to happen regardless.

It is nothing that the human being can ever do to offend or hurt God.

od19g6

Quote from: Sal1981 on January 07, 2020, 05:03:29 PM
You could think that, but you would be wrong.

I can easily imagine a scenario where an animal teaches a human some trick, intended or not.
Can you give an example?

od19g6

#189
Quote from: Mike Cl on January 07, 2020, 04:24:43 PM
Once again totally wrong.  Well, mostly wrong.  But, you cannot teach me anything--and I mean from tying a shoelace to algebra--UNLESS I want to learn.  You are mostly wrong in that I can teach my dogs to sit--but they wanted to learn.  And I have learned much from my dogs over the years--unconditional love for instance.  Animals in the wild learn all the time.  When I was in grade school, I was told that humans were the only tool makers in all of creation.  Clearly that is not true--hundreds of species of animals use tools.  Humans ARE animals.  Period.
We're more than just mere tool makers, we're civilization makers.

Yes, sometimes the animal doesn't want to learn but that not really the point.

The whole point is that the animal doesn't have the ultimate free will / free choice like we do and that as a whole the animal goes with the will of the human being.

Mike Cl

Quote from: od19g6 on January 07, 2020, 05:47:34 PM


The whole point is that the animal doesn't have the ultimate free will / free choice like we do and that as a whole the animal goes with the will of the human being.
You haven't been around animals much have you?
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Mike Cl

Quote from: od19g6 on January 07, 2020, 05:47:34 PM
We're more than just mere tool makers, we're civilization makers.

Look up some of the huge civilizations ants have and are, creating.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Unbeliever

God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Sal1981

Quote from: od19g6 on January 07, 2020, 05:36:13 PM
Can you give an example?
Where do you think the inspiration for aircraft wings came from? From observing birds.

Where do you think the inspiration for optics came from? Animal eyes.

Mr.Obvious

Quote from: od19g6 on January 07, 2020, 05:33:25 PM
Is kind of simple.
Technically God can do anything It wants. God is beyond the physical reality.

God can answer the prayer of the individual at any time and in any way.

God's will is mainly the divine revelations that come in every age throughout human history and evolution.

It's not really about someone "disrupting" God's will, it going to happen regardless.

It is nothing that the human being can ever do to offend or hurt God.

The real question is, can god do something it, at any one point, doesn't want to? Can god change his mind/will and utilize his omnipotence accordingly? Is god free to make a choice  if he knows already everything that will be? If he can't does that not mean he is actually not omnipotent? And if he can, then technically his will can be disrupted.

And if, indeed, nothing can disrupt god's will, as I agree would be the case if he's the omnipotent, omniscient creator of everything... Then does he not have a lot of crap to answer for? From distrust to deformation to disease. From parasites and perverts to scammers and stupidly pointless conversations?

We can not hurt god. We can not ask god to do anything he didn't always already want to do.
But god apparently can and does hurt us by deliberatly choosing to create a less than optimum world and design us in such a way that we, 100% according to his will and his bidding, suffer unfairly and treat one-another like crap.
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.