A new perspective on this thing that we know as God.

Started by od19g6, December 31, 2019, 05:13:18 PM

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Unbeliever

So, you think humans can learn to talk without being taught? Do some research on feral children you'll see that that is not the case.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Baruch

Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

od19g6

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 05, 2020, 11:52:26 AMHow do you know we can never completely know god??
Ultimately because that what the Manifestations of God says and plus God is beyond everything that we ever know in the physical world.

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 05, 2020, 11:52:26 AMWhat in our world demonstrates that any god even exists?
The best demonstration of God in this world is the human being itself.

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 05, 2020, 11:52:26 AMIf your god created the universe, would that not be physical evidence?
You can take that as evidence. But like I said as far as I understand the scriptures, the very best evidence of God is the human being itself.

And if your god is outside the universe, what created your god?  Or the god that created your god; or the god that created the god that created your god????[/quote]
God is the uncreated and is beyond everything that we know in the physical universe.

Let me try a give a painting analogy:

The painting and the painter is obviously different. The world of the painting can have many things in it, landscapes, mountains, animals. But the thing is, even though the painting has those things, they are made of certain elements that are just on the painting. Eventhough the reality is that there were a creator of the painting and the painter himself is made of different elements than the painting. "The painter is outside of the universe of the painting" even though the painter can control everything that's in the painting. And the things that are in the painting may not believe there is something besides the world of the painting.

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 05, 2020, 11:52:26 AMWhat attributes of god can animals exhibit?
They can definitely display some of the names and attributes of God. But they do it on a low level.

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 05, 2020, 11:52:26 AMWhat are some of the attributes of your god, btw?????
Would you like a list?

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 05, 2020, 11:52:26 AMWhat is the difference between demonstrating a low level of attributes and a high level?  How would one know?
That's a good question. We actually sees it all around us in comparison with animals and human beings. But hang tight, I'll find specifics for you.

Baruch

Quote from: Minimalist on January 05, 2020, 02:02:48 PM
Gods are the leftover detritus of humanity's primitive origins.  They are no longer needed.

With AI, humans are the leftover detritus of monkey shit.  No longer needed ;-)  Skynet did nothing wrong.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Unbeliever

Because Skynet didn't exist, it could do nothing wrong.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Baruch

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 05, 2020, 06:41:11 PM
Because Skynet didn't exist, it could do nothing wrong.

The Internet "you" is as much fiction as Schwartzenegger robot character.  You are a "crisis actor" in real life I think.  Got Soros?
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

od19g6

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 05, 2020, 05:29:31 PM
So, you think humans can learn to talk without being taught? Do some research on feral children you'll see that that is not the case.
I would try and answer your question unbeliever, but you just said that you can care less. Yet you keep coming back replying.

Unbeliever

Yeah, well, remember that you came to us to peddle your malarky, we didn't come to you to peddle our malarky. So you have no right at all to comment on my comments. This is where I come to talk to people who don't have belief in gods, and yet here you are talking stupid shit about a stupid god, invading my space.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

od19g6

Quote from: trdsf on January 05, 2020, 12:24:05 PM
Agreed, and this is why no one should be surprised that atheists do not believe any gods exist.
Maybe so. Even though you still have to discern what the so called "gods" are being talked about.

Quote from: trdsf on January 05, 2020, 12:24:05 PMYou realize that here you're asserting that your god for whom there is no "physical evidence" has a physical effect on the real world?  That means that if there would be physical evidence for its existence, if it existed.  You can't have it both ways.
Yes, I'm talking about the "physical manifestations" of the names and attributes that's in the physical world.

Quote from: trdsf on January 05, 2020, 12:24:05 PMIf a god exists and has an effect on physical reality, that effect should be measurable and directly attributable to it and no other cause.
Well the human being is measurable?

Quote from: trdsf on January 05, 2020, 12:24:05 PMIf a god exists and its effects on physical reality cannot be differentiated from natural causes, that cannot be differentiated from a state where no god exists.
Could you explain that a little bit more?

Quote from: trdsf on January 05, 2020, 12:24:05 PMAlso, neither names nor attributes mean anything in an evidentiary way.  They're just labels we use to denote concepts, physical and otherwise.  Naming a thing does not give it physical reality, unless you wish to assert that centaurs and interstellar jump drives exist.  Having the attribute of being a perfect gas or being frictionless does not mean perfect gases and frictionless surfaces exist.
Well like I keep saying there is no "physical reality" of God, only physical "manifestations" of God

od19g6

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 05, 2020, 06:54:00 PM
Yeah, well, remember that you came to us to peddle your malarky, we didn't come to you to peddle our malarky. So you have no right at all to comment on my comments. This is where I come to talk to people who don't have belief in gods, and yet here you are talking stupid shit about a stupid god, invading my space.
Well, I was assuming you were replying to me. And I guess your right, I don't have to comment on your comment.
So I guess with that, have a good one.

I'll just try and answer other comments.

Unbeliever

No you won't you'll just keep spouting bullshit, vague, nonsensical assertions.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Mike Cl

Quote from: od19g6 on January 05, 2020, 05:13:24 PM
Hi.
I don't know did I ever catch your exact answer or not, but would you like the list of the names and attributes of God?

Yes or no?
yes
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Mike Cl

Quote from: od19g6 on January 05, 2020, 06:38:55 PM
Ultimately because that what the Manifestations of God says and plus God is beyond everything that we ever know in the physical world.
The best demonstration of God in this world is the human being itself.
You can take that as evidence. But like I said as far as I understand the scriptures, the very best evidence of God is the human being itself.

And if your god is outside the universe, what created your god?  Or the god that created your god; or the god that created the god that created your god????
God is the uncreated and is beyond everything that we know in the physical universe.

Let me try a give a painting analogy:

The painting and the painter is obviously different. The world of the painting can have many things in it, landscapes, mountains, animals. But the thing is, even though the painting has those things, they are made of certain elements that are just on the painting. Eventhough the reality is that there were a creator of the painting and the painter himself is made of different elements than the painting. "The painter is outside of the universe of the painting" even though the painter can control everything that's in the painting. And the things that are in the painting may not believe there is something besides the world of the painting.
They can definitely display some of the names and attributes of God. But they do it on a low level.
Would you like a list?
That's a good question. We actually sees it all around us in comparison with animals and human beings. But hang tight, I'll find specifics for you.
Would I like a list?  You bet ya--yep.  And I'm hanging tight.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

trdsf

Quote from: od19g6 on January 05, 2020, 07:18:24 PM
Maybe so. Even though you still have to discern what the so called "gods" are being talked about.
No I don't.  I simply accept physical reality as it presents itself.  You're the one asserting that a god exists, it's entirely your responsibility to demonstrate it concretely and factually.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 05, 2020, 07:18:24 PM
Yes, I'm talking about the "physical manifestations" of the names and attributes that's in the physical world.
Then you're explaining nothing.  "Schmetterling", "papillon", "farfalle" and "butterfly" tell you absolutely naught about the creature under discussion, even though they are all names for the same general thing.  Words are completely human constructs; they are not dictated from on high.

I don't care about names, I care about definitions and measurements and verifiability.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 05, 2020, 07:18:24 PM
Well the human being is measurable?
That depends entirely on what you're measuring and how you're measuring it.  Remember, to be evidence, it must be clearly defined, repeatable, and not explained by any other means.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 05, 2020, 07:18:24 PM
Quote from: trdsf
If a god exists and its effects on physical reality cannot be differentiated from natural causes, that cannot be differentiated from a state where no god exists.
Could you explain that a little bit more?
If you can't tell a natural cause from a supernatural cause, you cannot use it to assert a supernatural cause exists.

A rainbow appears in the sky.  I explain how it's caused by the internal reflection of light within water droplets of a certain size and how the position of the sun is responsible for the apparent height of the rainbow.  Someone else says 'god made it appear'.  Which one can you take into the lab and test -- actually, you don't even need a lab, just a garden hose and a sunny day.

Which one usefully and verifiably explains all manifestations of the phenomenon, and which one is an unverifiable assertion with no explanatory power that can be checked independently?

In the entire history of humankind, every mysterious event that has been explained, has been explained in terms of verified and verifiable natural causes.  Never once in the entire history of human inquiry has a mysterious event had a verified supernatural explanation: not 'very very rarely', never.

We can safely say that we have no cause to look to the supernatural for explanations, and until and unless anyone can finally demonstrate the supernatural, we have no cause to give such claims any merit.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 05, 2020, 07:18:24 PM
Well like I keep saying there is no "physical reality" of God, only physical "manifestations" of God
And if they manifest in the physical world, then there is by definition a physical reality, and if there is a physical reality, then it is by definition observable and measurable.  You can't get around that by defining your god concept as being in the real world but not of it.
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Hydra009

#164
Quote from: od19g6 on January 04, 2020, 04:54:54 PM
Well,

We are the only animal species that can develop highly advanced technology.

We are the only animal species that can build a city.

We are the only animal species that can build an entire state.

We are the only animal species that canbuild whole countries and entire civilizations.

And I'll tell you this: we are the only animal species that can the animal/nature go into orbit/space travel.

These are far beyond just mere animal evolution.

And all of those things are manifestations of the divine reality that only the human being has.
We are basically manifesting God to the physical world.
Okay, I'll bite.  What in the seven hells does tool-making have to do with God existing?

If humans could spit acid, would you cite that as evidence for God?  Aren't you, in effect, just listing stuff that humans do really well that most other animals don't and tacking God on top of that?  Nevermind all that for the moment.

Let's go back ten million years or so.  Primates exist.  No advanced technology exists.  (Except A/C in termite mounds, but that apparently doesn't count, while human A/C does for some reason)  So...in this technology-barren world, does God exist?  I ask because you cite technology as evidence of God, so its negation must logically be the other's negation, right?

At the most basic level, I am asking if you actually believe your own argument or if it's just an argument you're using that sounds good to you and you figure that because it sounds good to you, your audience (atheists) will find it compelling.