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Is Lourdes impossible to refute ?

Started by Syrimoon, November 22, 2019, 01:33:20 PM

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SGOS

Quote from: Syrimoon on November 23, 2019, 10:22:16 AM
So you really can, in full honestly , look at Lourdes and see no reason to believe ? It's possible that she hears the name immaculate heart before, it's possible her stories got carried away, it's possible the miracles are just a lump ofnlies, exaggerations , hysteria and coincidence ? And if so how do I do that man
I see no reason to believe it.  But the thing about belief is there is nothing in the definition that requires a belief to be true.  It's just something you believe.  You can believe in a false thing, and no one is going to take you out back and shoot you.  I'll bet there are a thousand things outside your religion that you know nothing about.  You don't waste time worrying about whether they are true or not.  In other words, you just don't know.  You lack a belief.

Religious dogma has a special status.  It's unknowable.  It cannot be proven true or false.  This is fertile ground for people like you that feel like they have to believe one way or another.  But belief has nothing to do with knowing anything.  Yet you find yourself worrying about not believing the unknowable.  All you can do is believe.  That's the best you can do.  And if you get it wrong, who cares? I don't.

Syrimoon

Quote from: SGOS on November 23, 2019, 11:01:42 AM
I see no reason to believe it.  But the thing about belief is there is nothing in the definition that requires a belief to be true.  It's just something you believe.  You can believe in a false thing, and no one is going to take you out back and shoot you.  I'll bet there are a thousand things outside your religion that you know nothing about.  You don't waste time worrying about whether they are true or not.  In other words, you just don't know.  You lack a belief.

Religious dogma has a special status.  It's unknowable.  It cannot be proven true or false.  This is fertile ground for people like you that feel like they have to believe one way or another.  But belief has nothing to do with knowing anything.  Yet you find yourself worrying about not believing the unknowable.  All you can do is believe.  That's the best you can do.  And if you get it wrong, who cares? I don't.

Well in most believe systems if you get it wrong you go to hell which is what I'm scared of at the root of all this. It dominoed. Ifourdes could be true, my brain said, that all of it is true, even the parts we know from history aren't true

Gawdzilla Sama

Any you  picked the religion that was ubiquitous in your region to believe is true. LOL
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Syrimoon

Quote from: Mike Cl on November 23, 2019, 10:57:54 AM
Why do you believe those stories?  Could it be possible there are a few lies involved ?  And why would a god trying to reach all of his creation be so obscure with his miracles?  Simply, it does not add up--clearly there are a bunch of tall tales going on here--much like Paul Bunyan and his blue ox.
I feel like I have to believe because somehow in my brain one answer (god and miracles) adds up more logically than many (lies and coincidences and mistakes). I'm sure there's a logical fallacy there somewhere, I just...i dunno. I have ptsd, I haven't eaten in 36 hours. Nothing makes sense

Syrimoon

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on November 23, 2019, 11:18:29 AM
Any you  picked the religion that was ubiquitous in your region to believe is true. LOL

I know, I know. I promise I'm not trying to be a pain here.  I've been agnostic for a long time, bordering on atheist, but Lourdes just has me shook and my years of Catholicism tell me it's because I know I should go home to the church

Gawdzilla Sama

Quote from: Syrimoon on November 23, 2019, 11:20:04 AM
I know, I know. I promise I'm not trying to be a pain here.  I've been agnostic for a long time, bordering on atheist, but Lourdes just has me shook and my years of Catholicism tell me it's because I know I should go home to the church
You let magic and hoodoo shake you? You should stay in religion, it doesn't require you to think.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Syrimoon

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on November 23, 2019, 11:36:18 AM
You let magic and hoodoo shake you? You should stay in religion, it doesn't require you to think.

I am thinking, I'm trying really hard to explain how someone can have documented wounds when they get in the water and immediately after have them documented as healing, recently ,  by doctors

Gawdzilla Sama

Quote from: Syrimoon on November 23, 2019, 11:48:24 AM
I am thinking, I'm trying really hard to explain how someone can have documented wounds when they get in the water and immediately after have them documented as healing, recently ,  by doctors
Magic, of course. Go have fun with your idols.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Syrimoon

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on November 23, 2019, 12:05:23 PM
Magic, of course. Go have fun with your idols.

More like my next suicide attempt but ok

Gawdzilla Sama

We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Mike Cl

Quote from: Syrimoon on November 23, 2019, 11:18:46 AM
I feel like I have to believe because somehow in my brain one answer (god and miracles) adds up more logically than many (lies and coincidences and mistakes). I'm sure there's a logical fallacy there somewhere, I just...i dunno. I have ptsd, I haven't eaten in 36 hours. Nothing makes sense
Ptsd--and no food.  Not healthy for body nor mind.  Religion won't fix anything for you.  But, an understanding and competent counselor would help--you need to find one.  Your first priority should be to get you mind and body straight.   
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Unbeliever

#71
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 23, 2019, 11:20:04 AM
I know, I know. I promise I'm not trying to be a pain here.  I've been agnostic for a long time, bordering on atheist, but Lourdes just has me shook and my years of Catholicism tell me it's because I know I should go home to the church

That's pretty much what it was intended to do. They want you, they'll get you any way they can. If it wasn't Lourdes, it would be something else that would be compelling you to stay with the Church.
Quote from: Catholic Encyclical X, 195
We [Catholics] are also under an obligation to keep secrets faithfully. And sometimes the easiest way to fulfill that duty is to say what is false, or to tell a lie.


According to Richard Sisson, on pages 55 and 56 in the second volume of "Answering Christianity's Most Puzzling Questions,"
QuotePeople do strange things when they are cornered by facts. When evidence cannot be denied, men who care nothing for the truth simply become illogical. Minds become willfully ignorant and emotions turn hostile.

It's not the miracle you believe in, it's the people who told you about the miracle. When you realize that people are not reliable you may realize that miracles are a dime a dozen - but none of them ever actually happened.

Quote from: Beausobre (theologian)
Christians not only do not say what they think, but they do say the direct contrary of what they think. Philosophers in their cabinets; out of them they are content with fables, though they well know they are fables. Nay, more: they deliver honest men to the executioner, for having uttered what they themselves know to be true. How many atheists and pagans have burned holy men under the pretext of heresy? Every day do hypocrites consecrate, and make people adore the host, though as well convinced as I am, that it is nothing but a bit of bread.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Gawdzilla Sama

concern troll
In an argument (usually a political debate), a concern troll is someone who is on one side of the discussion, but pretends to be a supporter of the other side with "concerns". The idea behind this is that your opponents will take your arguments more seriously if they think you're an ally. Concern trolls who use fake identities are sometimes known as sockpuppets.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

SGOS

#73
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 23, 2019, 11:15:39 AM
Well in most believe systems if you get it wrong you go to hell which is what I'm scared of at the root of all this. It dominoed. Ifourdes could be true, my brain said, that all of it is true, even the parts we know from history aren't true
I suspected that was at the core of all this.  I experienced it too.  I suspect than many of us who have left our religion have fought that battle.  On the other hand, many in this forum who were former theists, just walked away without a backward look.  Logically, that's the way it should happen.  Once you realize there is no credible evidence to support irrational beliefs, you should be done with it.

But there's an emotional component, entirely fear in your case and mine.  Suppose you're wrong, and God throws you into a fiery torment for eternity, that is assuming God is actually that much of a prick.  He leaves no evidence behind, makes no public appearances, doesn't talk to you when you pray (unless you're delusional), and expects you to believe without knowing, or you go to Hell.  Of all the things about miracles and Bible stories that tax our sense of reality to the limit, that concept of God may be the hardest thing to believe in of all.  Why would a supposedly loving god commit such a barbarous act?

Years after I acknowledged my atheism, which was not an act of choice by the way, I finally got over the irrational fear.  It passes when you come to terms with the fact that you don't believe in religious dogma that has no rational basis.  It's not defiance.  It's facing reality.  You are who you are. Emotions serve no purpose after they are recognized as irrational, and even when you recognize religion for what it is, the emotional component can linger as it did for me.  It depends on how well your parents indoctrinated you into their belief system.  But like any bad habbit, fear dissipates when you stop practicing it.

Syrimoon

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on November 23, 2019, 02:17:39 PM
concern troll
In an argument (usually a political debate), a concern troll is someone who is on one side of the discussion, but pretends to be a supporter of the other side with "concerns". The idea behind this is that your opponents will take your arguments more seriously if they think you're an ally. Concern trolls who use fake identities are sometimes known as sockpuppets.

I am neither. I'm just lost, scared and confused