Author Topic: Is Lourdes impossible to refute ?  (Read 3577 times)

Re: Is Lourdes impossible to refute ?
« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2019, 07:52:16 PM »
The burden of proof is on them if they want people to believe their stories. It's not on us to prove they're not miracles.

It's also to be noted that the doctors working on modern cases are only there the say, idk man, idk, then the miracle gets passed on to religion

Re: Is Lourdes impossible to refute ?
« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2019, 07:55:09 PM »
I'm not especially impressed by a group of "doctors" claiming miracles. Let's see them fool Penn and Teller.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Re: Is Lourdes impossible to refute ?
« Reply #32 on: November 22, 2019, 08:08:45 PM »
I can admit I'm a little frustrated and overwhelmed by how we don't have straight answers readily available to each and every case, especially the oldest ones since they seem the most wild
Think about it a little bit.  What is the actual outcome of the Catholic religion?  It was used by Constantine as crowd control.  And once the crowd is controlled, what is the next step?  Making money.  does it matter if a miracle actually happened or can (or not) be proven?  No.  why?  For those with 'Faith' is does not need to be proven.  And the church hierarchy insists that it is true--now, give me money.  Look at what the Pope wears.  He could finance a small country with his finery.  Did Jesus ever wear any of that stuff????  The Catholic church is about crowd control, money and political power.  Miracles and icons (which are idols is you think about it) and stories from afar are simply window dressing and tools used to minulipate the masses. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: Is Lourdes impossible to refute ?
« Reply #33 on: November 22, 2019, 08:14:24 PM »
How can the RCC claim that Simon/Peter was the "first pope" after he denied knowing Jesus - three times? Do the subsequent popes have a ritual denial of Jesus before they can become the pope?
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Re: Is Lourdes impossible to refute ?
« Reply #34 on: November 22, 2019, 08:14:52 PM »
I'm not especially impressed by a group of "doctors" claiming miracles. Let's see them fool Penn and Teller.

From what I can gather their role is to examine and rule out any known cause, though it's e tkrelt plausible that had it occurred a fee years later we would know a cause

Re: Is Lourdes impossible to refute ?
« Reply #35 on: November 22, 2019, 09:53:20 PM »
And how would Bernadette have known to call the image the immaculate conception, a new name ? Did she hear it in passing at church and memorize it?

Re: Is Lourdes impossible to refute ?
« Reply #36 on: November 23, 2019, 05:48:42 AM »
No, im...i don't know what I am now but I don't/want/ to believe. I'm sorry I just had several years of religious trauma
You're looking for an excuse to stay. Get over it. You're no more alone out here in the real world.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Re: Is Lourdes impossible to refute ?
« Reply #37 on: November 23, 2019, 05:49:39 AM »
It's also to be noted that the doctors working on modern cases are only there the say, idk man, idk, then the miracle gets passed on to religion
Religion has zero answers.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Re: Is Lourdes impossible to refute ?
« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2019, 08:57:54 AM »
You're looking for an excuse to stay. Get over it. You're no more alone out here in the real world.

I was never in religion to not feel alone. I waa never happy as a theist. It was nonstop loneliness and terror and rigidity. I was a theist because I thought there was a god and that terrified me, and that's why I'm freaking out about a huge group of apparent miracles that I haven't seen anyone provide a solid refutation for

Offline SGOS

Re: Is Lourdes impossible to refute ?
« Reply #39 on: November 23, 2019, 09:11:42 AM »
I can admit I'm a little frustrated and overwhelmed by how we don't have straight answers readily available to each and every case, especially the oldest ones since they seem the most wild
If you are not prepared to deal with the amount of bullshit in religion then you could probably join a church and accept it all as true.  Your problem would then be solved.  I had the same dilemma at one time.  I deal with it by disregarding anything that comes from a church.  This is not a planned strategy.  It's just that after being fed so much bullshit in my formative years, I no longer have enough interest in religion's bullshit to even care.  I spent 30 years of my life, trying to make sense out of the nonsense, and failing at every turn.  Life is too short to waste so much time chasing a unicorn.

Re: Is Lourdes impossible to refute ?
« Reply #40 on: November 23, 2019, 09:23:09 AM »
It's also to be noted that the doctors working on modern cases are only there the say, idk man, idk, then the miracle gets passed on to religion

Found this in 15 seconds of google of 'Lourdes skeptic'.  Hundreds more. 

Lourdes
In 1858, at a grotto by the river Gave near Lourdes, France,  a 14-year-old peasant named Bernadette Soubirous claimed that the Virgin Mary, identifying herself as "the Immaculate Conception," appeared to her some 18 times.* You'd think such a great number of visitations would have provided an opportunity to channel a short theological treatise of some significance. It seems, however, that the main message from the alleged "mother of a god" was: "Pray and do penance for the conversion of the world." Oh, and take a drink of the spring water.

To its eternal discredit, the Roman Catholic Church investigated Soubirous's claims for four years before approving devotion to Our Lady of Lourdes. Since then, the Church has validated 67 miracles at Lourdes* (of the thousands that have been reported*) and canonized the peasant girl.* (Her body, which is on display, is alleged to be incorruptible, but the face and hands, which look so lifelike, are made of wax.) It is estimated that in recent years about 5 million pilgrims a year visit the shrine at Lourdes. Over the past 150 years, some 200 million people have made the pilgrimage.* For those who care, that's a success rate of .0000335% or 1 out of every 3 million. Furthermore, since 1947 anyone claiming a miraculous cure has to go before a medical board. "From 1947 to 1990, only 1,000 cures were claimed and only 56 were recognized in that time, averaging 1.3 cures a year, against 57 a year before 1914."* Since 1978, there have been only four recognized cures.* So, if you're thinking of going to Lourdes for a miracle cure, the odds are not very high in your favor. Pilgrims might find some consolation in a British study that tested miracle-seekers at regular intervals for a year after they visited Lourdes and found that they were significantly less anxious and depressed.* Who wouldn't be cheered up by a trip to southern France and by being surrounded by people much worse off than yourself?

Of all the cures alleged to have occurred at Lourdes, however, none have involved dramatic, unambiguous events like the growing back of a severed limb. Belgian philosopher Etienne Vermeersch likened this fact to the lack of clear, unambiguous data in support of the existence of Bigfoot or the Loch Ness monster. He also claimed that there have probably been significantly more fatal accidents suffered by pilgrims on their way to or from Lourdes than there have been cures.

The fact that the stories of miracles found in the scriptures of various religions involve cases that could be explained naturalistically (raising the dead or curing cancer...well, he wasn't really dead or she didn't really have cancer) or dismissed as mythological (born of a virgin, resurrected into heaven, survived three days under water) led Vermeersch to coin the expression "Lourdes effect" to describe this curious lack of a single unambiguous miracle by all the alleged miracle workers who have dazzled crowds for millennia. Why do supernatural powers resist manifesting themselves in a clear way? It's certainly not a matter of difficulty.



 

The grotto near Lourdes in 1858

Lourdes has a population of around 15,000. To accommodate the 5 million pilgrims who descend on the town each year, there are some 270 hotels. Only Paris has more hotels in France. Needless to say, business is good. The water's free if you go there. For those who can't make the trip, many enterprising folks will bring Lourdes to you: they sell water from the spring (100€ will get you 1 liter). The water is believed to have healing properties. It certainly generates a lot of hope and revenue thanks to the continuing abundance of wishful and magical thinking among the afflicted. But the odds of anyone being cured of anything except thirst by this water are less than favorable, excluding, of course, those cured by a placebo effect.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: Is Lourdes impossible to refute ?
« Reply #41 on: November 23, 2019, 09:23:53 AM »
If you are not prepared to deal with the amount of bullshit in religion then you could probably join a church and accept it all as true.  Your problem would then be solved.  I had the same dilemma at one time.  I deal with it by disregarding anything that comes from a church.  This is not a planned strategy.  It's just that after being fed so much bullshit in my formative years, I no longer have enough interest in religion's bullshit to even care.  I spent 30 years of my life, trying to make sense out of the nonsense, and failing at every turn.  Life is too short to waste so much time chasing a unicorn.

O spent 25, so I understand. I don't know. Something on me keeps saying, you're in denial, you know the church is true bow, you're just refusing to go back...but couldn't that just be my anxiety and trauma telling me the absolute worst case scenario is gonna happen ?

Re: Is Lourdes impossible to refute ?
« Reply #42 on: November 23, 2019, 09:26:57 AM »
Found this in 15 seconds of google of 'Lourdes skeptic'.  Hundreds more. 

Lourdes
In 1858, at a grotto by the river Gave near Lourdes, France,  a 14-year-old peasant named Bernadette Soubirous claimed that the Virgin Mary, identifying herself as "the Immaculate Conception," appeared to her some 18 times.* You'd think such a great number of visitations would have provided an opportunity to channel a short theological treatise of some significance. It seems, however, that the main message from the alleged "mother of a god" was: "Pray and do penance for the conversion of the world." Oh, and take a drink of the spring water.

To its eternal discredit, the Roman Catholic Church investigated Soubirous's claims for four years before approving devotion to Our Lady of Lourdes. Since then, the Church has validated 67 miracles at Lourdes* (of the thousands that have been reported*) and canonized the peasant girl.* (Her body, which is on display, is alleged to be incorruptible, but the face and hands, which look so lifelike, are made of wax.) It is estimated that in recent years about 5 million pilgrims a year visit the shrine at Lourdes. Over the past 150 years, some 200 million people have made the pilgrimage.* For those who care, that's a success rate of .0000335% or 1 out of every 3 million. Furthermore, since 1947 anyone claiming a miraculous cure has to go before a medical board. "From 1947 to 1990, only 1,000 cures were claimed and only 56 were recognized in that time, averaging 1.3 cures a year, against 57 a year before 1914."* Since 1978, there have been only four recognized cures.* So, if you're thinking of going to Lourdes for a miracle cure, the odds are not very high in your favor. Pilgrims might find some consolation in a British study that tested miracle-seekers at regular intervals for a year after they visited Lourdes and found that they were significantly less anxious and depressed.* Who wouldn't be cheered up by a trip to southern France and by being surrounded by people much worse off than yourself?

Of all the cures alleged to have occurred at Lourdes, however, none have involved dramatic, unambiguous events like the growing back of a severed limb. Belgian philosopher Etienne Vermeersch likened this fact to the lack of clear, unambiguous data in support of the existence of Bigfoot or the Loch Ness monster. He also claimed that there have probably been significantly more fatal accidents suffered by pilgrims on their way to or from Lourdes than there have been cures.

The fact that the stories of miracles found in the scriptures of various religions involve cases that could be explained naturalistically (raising the dead or curing cancer...well, he wasn't really dead or she didn't really have cancer) or dismissed as mythological (born of a virgin, resurrected into heaven, survived three days under water) led Vermeersch to coin the expression "Lourdes effect" to describe this curious lack of a single unambiguous miracle by all the alleged miracle workers who have dazzled crowds for millennia. Why do supernatural powers resist manifesting themselves in a clear way? It's certainly not a matter of difficulty.



 

The grotto near Lourdes in 1858

Lourdes has a population of around 15,000. To accommodate the 5 million pilgrims who descend on the town each year, there are some 270 hotels. Only Paris has more hotels in France. Needless to say, business is good. The water's free if you go there. For those who can't make the trip, many enterprising folks will bring Lourdes to you: they sell water from the spring (100€ will get you 1 liter). The water is believed to have healing properties. It certainly generates a lot of hope and revenue thanks to the continuing abundance of wishful and magical thinking among the afflicted. But the odds of anyone being cured of anything except thirst by this water are less than favorable, excluding, of course, those cured by a placebo effect.

I have read that, indeed. I've read all i can.

It comes back to this am one really-

How do we explain things like a man regaining his sight or a woman's paralysis stopping?

We're they already feeling signs of healing and used the water for a minute of fame? But the blind man was a skeptic, he didn't believe, he claimed he was blond before and bot after, and his doctor examined him after

Shit like that

Offline SGOS

Re: Is Lourdes impossible to refute ?
« Reply #43 on: November 23, 2019, 09:32:07 AM »

I'm freaking out about a huge group of apparent miracles that I haven't seen anyone provide a solid refutation for
This has already been pointed out.  You must have disregarded it:  It is not up to you to refute such extraordinary claims.  Proving the claim is up to the claimant. If he can't to that he's got nothing.  Theists usually support bullshit claims by referring to other bullshit, some of which is made up on the spot.  Unfortunately, doubling down with more bullshit is not rational support.  It's just twice as much bullshit.  As a last resort, theists sometimes say, "Well then, you prove it's not true."  This is lazy and irresponsible.  Don't waste my time.

I'm an agnostic and an atheist.  As such, I'm just an observer waiting for theists to convince me.  I have no investment any of this.  I'm just waiting.  I don't need to prove or disprove anything.  I'm just watching and waiting for good evidence.  You can tell me god cured a blind guy.  But that's just a claim, and claims  are a dime a dozen.  I'm not interested in empty claims.

Offline SGOS

Re: Is Lourdes impossible to refute ?
« Reply #44 on: November 23, 2019, 09:39:01 AM »
O spent 25, so I understand. I don't know. Something on me keeps saying, you're in denial, you know the church is true bow, you're just refusing to go back...but couldn't that just be my anxiety and trauma telling me the absolute worst case scenario is gonna happen ?
Been there.  I was brain beaten as a child by a Baptist grandmother.  Those Baptists know a thing or two about indoctrinating the young and the weak.  You don't recover from that kind of brainwashing with a snap of the fingers, especially if you've been told you will rot in Hell if you don't buy the bullshit.  It took me 30 years to rid myself of that 10 years of brainwashing.  No, I redid the math.  It took me 40 years.