Author Topic: Is Lourdes impossible to refute ?  (Read 4096 times)

Is Lourdes impossible to refute ?
« on: November 22, 2019, 01:33:20 PM »
I just don't  understand how we are suppose to argue a woman with a paralyzed hand dunking it into the water and suddenly she was use it? I mean yeah it was 1858 but how early was it documented? How well were early cases documented ? Please someone help me, I'm actually losing my mind

Re: Is Lourdes impossible to refute ?
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2019, 01:46:39 PM »
Unless I witness a "miracle" myself, I'm prepared to deny that it was a miracle. Too many ways for people to be fooled, or duped, into believing absurdities. And people who believe absurdities too often commit atrocities.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Re: Is Lourdes impossible to refute ?
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2019, 02:12:20 PM »
Unless I witness a "miracle" myself, I'm prepared to deny that it was a miracle. Too many ways for people to be fooled, or duped, into believing absurdities. And people who believe absurdities too often commit atrocities.

But there have been whole board of medical committees set up at Lourdes to document what happened, and some of their cases are astounding

Re: Is Lourdes impossible to refute ?
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2019, 02:32:55 PM »
But to say that "we don't know how it happened, so it must have been God that did it" is an argumentum ignorantiam. I need better evidence than that.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Re: Is Lourdes impossible to refute ?
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2019, 02:39:20 PM »
But to say that "we don't know how it happened, so it must have been God that did it" is an argumentum ignorantiam. I need better evidence than that.
I know. I'm just. I come from a Catholic home and a csrholic cukt like church and I am so terrified of someday being convinced to go back

Offline SGOS

Re: Is Lourdes impossible to refute ?
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2019, 02:40:04 PM »
A guy I knew who was newly converted to fundamentalism told me that he heard about a guy who broke his leg.  As he was laying there in pain, another fundamentalist laid his hand on the guy's leg and prayed to God, and as he did, he could feel the broken bone in the leg mend.  Surely, you can't deny that story.

Re: Is Lourdes impossible to refute ?
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2019, 02:52:16 PM »
A guy I knew who was newly converted to fundamentalism told me that he heard about a guy who broke his leg.  As he was laying there in pain, another fundamentalist laid his hand on the guy's leg and prayed to God, and as he did, he could feel the broken bone in the leg mend.  Surely, you can't deny that story.

Well no but Lourdes has an entire medical committe to examine modern cures

Re: Is Lourdes impossible to refute ?
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2019, 03:18:01 PM »
How many prosthetic limbs are there in that pile of crutches? How many glass eyeballs?

https://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Re: Is Lourdes impossible to refute ?
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2019, 03:23:30 PM »
Why would people have to go to France to be healed by a God that is, literally, everywhere?
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Offline Baruch

Re: Is Lourdes impossible to refute ?
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2019, 03:40:28 PM »
I just don't  understand how we are suppose to argue a woman with a paralyzed hand dunking it into the water and suddenly she was use it? I mean yeah it was 1858 but how early was it documented? How well were early cases documented ? Please someone help me, I'm actually losing my mind

All diagnosis of miraculous cures, would show that these were psychosomatic problems to begin with.  The patient's mind was affecting their body in a particularly negative way, a kind of hysteria.  Once the hysteria dissipates then that component of the dis-ease is ameliorated.

To the patient psychosomatic dis-ease is just as real as organic disease (the result of infection or injury).
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Offline Baruch

Re: Is Lourdes impossible to refute ?
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2019, 03:46:13 PM »
But there have been whole board of medical committees set up at Lourdes to document what happened, and some of their cases are astounding

Medical boards are like kangaroo courts, they often hop around.  Don't trust experts.  Trust your lying eyes.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Offline Baruch

Re: Is Lourdes impossible to refute ?
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2019, 03:52:03 PM »
I know. I'm just. I come from a Catholic home and a csrholic cukt like church and I am so terrified of someday being convinced to go back

You have a complicated dialectic between yourself and your family, your Church and your self identity.  Take baby steps.  Accept that things will turn out all right, even if you can't read a crystal ball any better than I can.

My wise daughter shares with me ... don't try to rationally argue with your family.  If rational argument helps you, then do that.  But it doesn't work between people.  The other people here who know me, know that is true ;-)  Tell your brother how you feel, not how you think.  For example "I don't fell comfortable with the RCC, or with religion"  "The RCC or religion makes me feel angry/ fearful/ anxious/ confused etc.  Get them to share their feelings about the RCC, religion, your situation.  Yea, guys don't like to be in touch with and express emotions.  Fear of family conflict suppresses honest exchange of emotions.  But that is the problem itself.  It is psychological, not theological.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Re: Is Lourdes impossible to refute ?
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2019, 03:52:41 PM »
All diagnosis of miraculous cures, would show that these were psychosomatic problems to begin with.  The patient's mind was affecting their body in a particularly negative way, a kind of hysteria.  Once the hysteria dissipates then that component of the dis-ease is ameliorated.

To the patient psychosomatic dis-ease is just as real as organic disease (the result of infection or injury).

I mean for some, but for cancer or MS?

Offline Baruch

Re: Is Lourdes impossible to refute ?
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2019, 03:54:14 PM »
Why would people have to go to France to be healed by a God that is, literally, everywhere?

G-d is testing them.  And helping Air France ;-(
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Offline Baruch

Re: Is Lourdes impossible to refute ?
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2019, 03:59:43 PM »
I mean for some, but for cancer or MS?

If they are psychosomatic, then yes.  There are many kinds of disease.  And they manifest differently in each individual differently, each time..  Even from the natural POV, this is why medicine is hard.  Your mind effects the health of your whole body.  If the mind is sufficiently broken, the effects are horrifying.  When my mother was nearing her end, and was in temporary psychosis at the hospital, it was something I didn't want to experience, nor for her to.  This is why medical personnel who care, burn out quickly.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.