Author Topic: Those who "witnessed" Fatimas miracle 18 km away  (Read 1438 times)

Re: Those who "witnessed" Fatimas miracle 18 km away
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2019, 03:18:59 PM »
Reading the Bible has made more atheists than any other activity. As Asimov pointed out, “Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.”

Reading it didn't automatically make me an atheist, but it sure did make me a non-Christian.

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“Let others pride themselves about how many pages they have written; I'd rather boast about the ones I've read.”
― Jorge Luis Borges

Re: Those who "witnessed" Fatimas miracle 18 km away
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2019, 03:23:34 PM »

Thanks for all your replies!

So I am still compiling what I want to say back to my brother on his latest email (might bring up some of the bible and Catholic shit because I know he doesn't read his, he gets his theology from Catholic Answers forum) but I would like some feedback on my theory above before I end up sounding like a dumb ass to hin, regarding why some looking for the supposed dancing sun didn't notice the probable weather phenomena. Like If someone was looking through their fingers at only a very fixed point. If someone had poor vision or poor ability to focus, someone too blinded the sun to look more than a few seconds, maybe even those familiar with the funny way the sun can look at times not thinking anything of it? After all there were reports of similar solar shows reported in the weeks leading up to it. Any of these could account for those who saw nothing, do you think? I just know that people who respond to debubkers often bring up that point, that if there was any weather pattern to be seen, everyone should have seen it, but as someone with a visual disorder myself I feel like it is logical to say that out of 70,000 people over a large area, some people would simply be in a position to not see what was going on.

Offline SGOS

Re: Those who "witnessed" Fatimas miracle 18 km away
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2019, 03:39:20 PM »
Suppose it was an actual miracle?  What would it's purpose be?  A message from God saying, "I am here." ??  Last time I remember one of these, it was weeping trees, later explained by a botanist.  Maybe God is just getting old.  Where are the parting seas?  The talking bushes?  The apocalyptic floods?  If you think maybe he's just getting tired and petering out, wait until dementia sets in.  Then you're going to see some really dopey shit.

Re: Those who "witnessed" Fatimas miracle 18 km away
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2019, 03:48:25 PM »
That reminds me of a very entertaining book I read a while back, called "Towing Jehovah" - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login


Quote
God is dead, and now God's two-mile-long cadaver is floating in the Atlantic Ocean, just off the coast of Africa. As a result, the archangel Raphael hires supertanker captain Anthony Van Horne to tow the cadaver into the Arctic, with the intention of having it be preserved by the cold.
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“Let others pride themselves about how many pages they have written; I'd rather boast about the ones I've read.”
― Jorge Luis Borges

Re: Those who "witnessed" Fatimas miracle 18 km away
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2019, 03:55:44 PM »
Technically speaking Fatima is supposedly a miracle from Mary, cause you know. Catholics. But yes it is telling that we don't really have the biblical miracles that people want to claim happened in ye olden days.

((And I know it's kinda dumb but I would be super appreciative of some insight from others if my logic above is sound. My brother, Catholicism aside, is usually a very well spoken guy and I'm kinda anxious about sounding stupid with my own theories? I know it's unlikely that anything i say will be able to get him to see something more physically, but I wanna give it a good college try  ))

Offline Baruch

Re: Those who "witnessed" Fatimas miracle 18 km away
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2019, 08:04:03 PM »
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Yeah Catholics can look more towards the priesthood for their guidance than the bible and it's hypocritical as hell. The stereotype of Catholics not reading their bible is totally true

I hear from witnesses, that the Macedonian Orthodox Church is just like that.  They were shocked anyone wanted their own copy of the Bible in Macedonian (outside of pew Bibles).  I knew a Greek Orthodox Priest who had to leave that church because he wouldn't be allowed to deviate from the liturgical Bible  selections into other parts of the Bible.
Zampa xiquihto.  Amo nimitzcuamachilia.
Say it again.  I don't understand you.

Re: Those who "witnessed" Fatimas miracle 18 km away
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2019, 10:28:41 AM »
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That doesn't surprise me at all friend. I know orthodox and Catholic churches have a lot of overlap and I can totally see that happening back in my old church. We had a foreign priest from a central African country, and he was very loving and forward thinking...he didn't last long.

Sent my reply to my brother, and I think i made some pretty sound arguments like I said I'm not counting on changing his mind I'm just trying to cut my discussion teeth!

Re: Those who "witnessed" Fatimas miracle 18 km away
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2019, 11:06:38 AM »
Quote
he's on about Mary.

Does he know that the Mary shit was not officially sanctioned until the Council of Ephesos in the mid 5th century?

Just more catholic bullshit like all the rest of it.
The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails.

-- H. L. Mencken

Re: Those who "witnessed" Fatimas miracle 18 km away
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2019, 11:27:55 AM »
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Does he know that the Mary shit was not officially sanctioned until the Council of Ephesos in the mid 5th century?

Just more catholic bullshit like all the rest of it.

Shit man probably not, I didn't even know that

Offline Baruch

Re: Those who "witnessed" Fatimas miracle 18 km away
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2019, 11:48:02 AM »
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Shit man probably not, I didn't even know that

The history of the Church, inside and outside the Roman Empire, after 325 CE was largely driven by politics ... in Constantinople, and Ethiopia, Armenia and Persia.  At that point, the NT Church(s) were a dead letter.  The theocratic revolutions in those empires/kingdoms were massive.  In Persia, the rise of nationalist Zoroastrianism preceded imperial Christianity by 100 years, and was a prototype for the others.  Think of the Iranian revolution, but the ayatollahs subservient to the Shah.

Western monasticism was an attempt to continue the pre-Constantinian church by other means.
Zampa xiquihto.  Amo nimitzcuamachilia.
Say it again.  I don't understand you.

Re: Those who "witnessed" Fatimas miracle 18 km away
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2019, 12:11:01 PM »
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The history of the Church, inside and outside the Roman Empire, after 325 CE was largely driven by politics ... in Constantinople, and Ethiopia, Armenia and Persia.  At that point, the NT Church(s) were a dead letter.  The theocratic revolutions in those empires/kingdoms were massive.  In Persia, the rise of nationalist Zoroastrianism preceded imperial Christianity by 100 years, and was a prototype for the others.  Think of the Iranian revolution, but the ayatollahs subservient to the Shah.

Western monasticism was an attempt to continue the pre-Constantinian church by other means.

You know the thing with this sort of history is that I had heard bits and pieces of it but it was always as a Catholic and it was always filtered through to me as being false history and disproven. Even today as a non Catholic by initial instinct when hearing thus sort of thing is that it's false, and it's actually been quite a step to be able to take this sort of early church history as what it is: actual history. Do you have any good, solid resources for a starter ?

Re: Those who "witnessed" Fatimas miracle 18 km away
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2019, 01:12:56 PM »
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Shit man probably not, I didn't even know that

You might consider studying secular histories of the RCC. You may be very surprised just how badly it's acted over the last 2 millennia.

You might find some things of interest here, at God Not Found:

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I've spent several years archiving much of the web, for people who want to do research on various things.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2019, 01:17:36 PM by Unbeliever »
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“Let others pride themselves about how many pages they have written; I'd rather boast about the ones I've read.”
― Jorge Luis Borges

Re: Those who "witnessed" Fatimas miracle 18 km away
« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2019, 02:09:17 PM »
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You might consider studying secular histories of the RCC. You may be very surprised just how badly it's acted over the last 2 millennia.

You might find some things of interest here, at God Not Found:

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

I've spent several years archiving much of the web, for people who want to do research on various things.

This is an amazing recourse, thank you ! I immediately found one of my favorite topics, polytheism in ancient judaeism

Offline Baruch

Re: Those who "witnessed" Fatimas miracle 18 km away
« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2019, 06:31:40 PM »
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You know the thing with this sort of history is that I had heard bits and pieces of it but it was always as a Catholic and it was always filtered through to me as being false history and disproven. Even today as a non Catholic by initial instinct when hearing thus sort of thing is that it's false, and it's actually been quite a step to be able to take this sort of early church history as what it is: actual history. Do you have any good, solid resources for a starter ?

When Jesus Became God by Richard  Rubenstein.  Covers the politics of the 4th century CE and how that decided the future of Christianity.  This is a very easy read for laymen.  The textbooks for seminarians are biased.  Eusebius of Caesarea, who knew Constantine, and wrote the first official Church History ... of course didn't know what would come from this event.  He thought that Constantine would bring about a utopian end of history.  There is a YouTube interview with Mr Rubenstein if you want the quick audio version.

At the end of the video ... he mentions how the court of Heaven matches the court on Earth.  The Pope and other patriarchs were employees of the Roman Emperor at this point.  Trinitarianism is a reflection of Roman court politics on Earth.  The high clerical robes and crowns of the clergy, are taken directly from late Roman court official uniforms.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2019, 06:43:36 PM by Baruch »
Zampa xiquihto.  Amo nimitzcuamachilia.
Say it again.  I don't understand you.

Re: Those who "witnessed" Fatimas miracle 18 km away
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2019, 07:50:29 PM »
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You know the thing with this sort of history is that I had heard bits and pieces of it but it was always as a Catholic and it was always filtered through to me as being false history and disproven. Even today as a non Catholic by initial instinct when hearing thus sort of thing is that it's false, and it's actually been quite a step to be able to take this sort of early church history as what it is: actual history. Do you have any good, solid resources for a starter ?
One suggestion is to start your research with Google.  Start with Catholic History and then read the selections you get--and bookmark those that interest you.  Then Google something like Skeptic catholic history--and so on.  Pretty soon you will end up with a bunch of bookmarked sites and you can then return to them at will.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

 

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