Author Topic: Those who "witnessed" Fatimas miracle 18 km away  (Read 1708 times)

Those who "witnessed" Fatimas miracle 18 km away
« on: November 17, 2019, 07:53:49 AM »
So I'm in what could be called a vague debate with my  (still Catholic) brother who is trying to get me back to the church and, being Catholic, he's on about Mary. Specifically right now,  the dancing sun at Fatima. I gave him my general thoughts on it about weather phenomena and mass hysteria and plain old lying, but he brought up that people as far away as 18km saw the miracle which I hadn't heard before. I find little about it online but there are some reports of it. What do you think those more remote people saw? Was the strange weather far reaching enough to be seen that far away? Were distant towns aware of the supposed miracle to happen that day and also staring up at the sun, blinding  themselves? Lying to feel included ?

Offline SGOS

Re: Those who "witnessed" Fatimas miracle 18 km away
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2019, 08:22:24 AM »
I haven't heard a thing about this, but I can see your brother reporting this phenomenon as new proof too convincing to be ignored.  There must be a god.  Right?  Now I don't want to seem disinterested, because it's certainly something that jarred me enough to respond.  At the same time, I am kind of disinterested, enough so as to not bother googling it. 

How could I ignore something so startlingly extraordinary?  I'll tell you why.  It's because the Catholics, and even more so, the fundamentalists have brought this kind of nonsense into the public awareness so often that it is nothing short of boring; "Here we go again!"  Yet the world fumbles on in a reality that exists as if there were no god, no one answers my prayers, which of course I no longer bother with, and my needs and desires are granted in the same pattern they were when I believed.  Things seem to happen because I make them happen or just happen in random and unpredictable ways that mimic chance.

And then a random atmospheric anomaly occurs, or even worse, is only said to occur, and everyone starts praising the Lord, "It's a sign.  Another sign.  Behold an rejoice."

I just roll my eyes, and then get on with my getting on.  It does not help my sanity to join the insane.  I just observe it and move on.

Offline Baruch

Re: Those who "witnessed" Fatimas miracle 18 km away
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2019, 08:39:38 AM »
Hmm.  An atmospheric phenomenon, like a Harvest Moon, can be seen over a wide area.  And is a natural phenomena of course.  So is the rarer Green Flash:



Marianism is a continuation of the worship of Isis in Egypt and Magna Mater in Asia Minor.

My older brother is a serious Catholic, so you have my sympathy.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't to that.

Offline SGOS

Re: Those who "witnessed" Fatimas miracle 18 km away
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2019, 09:24:13 AM »
Why doesn't  something like a total eclipse, a rarer and even more exciting visual phenomenon than some fucking sunset cause this kind of excitement with the Catholic Church's Miracle Investigation Committee?  It did among the ancients, and let me tell you, those ancients had a leg up our own modern day spiritualists at making a commotion over spiritual interpretations of the normal or even the just plain imagined.

Re: Those who "witnessed" Fatimas miracle 18 km away
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2019, 07:31:54 PM »
Hmm.  An atmospheric phenomenon, like a Harvest Moon, can be seen over a wide area.  And is a natural phenomena of course.  So is the rarer Green Flash:



Marianism is a continuation of the worship of Isis in Egypt and Magna Mater in Asia Minor.

My older brother is a serious Catholic, so you have my sympathy.

Yeah, stuff like this is ehatbalways struck me as the most logical explanation, it's always my go to.

Though I do wonder, and I'm no meteorologist or anything, but i do wonder; some at Fatima saw nothing at all. I wonder why that is, if the dancing sun was a sundog or something similar?

Re: Those who "witnessed" Fatimas miracle 18 km away
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2019, 11:08:18 AM »
Not 'The Miracle of the Sun' again...

There is so much wrong with this story, it's hard to know where to start.

Quote
people as far away as 18km saw the miracle

So, an atmospheric condition in the geographic area is visible 11 miles away is evidence it was indeed a miracle? Or, is it much more likely they all saw this:




Then there is this:

"Most of what's popularly reported about the sun incident, such as the colors and the spinning, comes from Father John de Marchi, a Catholic priest who spent years interviewing eyewitnesses to build evidence supporting the miraculous event. But more objective assessments of the eyewitness accounts have found very little evidence of a single shared experience. Author Kevin McClure, who also compiled eyewitness accounts, reported that he had "never seen such a collection of contradictory accounts in any of the research I have done in the past 10 years." If you were there, as a devout Catholic (otherwise you wouldn't be there), you fully believed in a miracle happening that day (otherwise you wouldn't be there), whether you personally saw anything or not you'd support the majority opinion, and probably go to your grave insisting that a miracle happened there. There's no surprise that Father de Marchi was able to form a consensus description of a spinning color wheel of a sun, and no need for any actual event to justify his consensus."
And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence - Russell

Re: Those who "witnessed" Fatimas miracle 18 km away
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2019, 12:00:47 PM »
Not 'The Miracle of the Sun' again...

There is so much wrong with this story, it's hard to know where to start.

So, an atmospheric condition in the geographic area is visible 11 miles away is evidence it was indeed a miracle? Or, is it much more likely they all saw this:




Then there is this:

"Most of what's popularly reported about the sun incident, such as the colors and the spinning, comes from Father John de Marchi, a Catholic priest who spent years interviewing eyewitnesses to build evidence supporting the miraculous event. But more objective assessments of the eyewitness accounts have found very little evidence of a single shared experience. Author Kevin McClure, who also compiled eyewitness accounts, reported that he had "never seen such a collection of contradictory accounts in any of the research I have done in the past 10 years." If you were there, as a devout Catholic (otherwise you wouldn't be there), you fully believed in a miracle happening that day (otherwise you wouldn't be there), whether you personally saw anything or not you'd support the majority opinion, and probably go to your grave insisting that a miracle happened there. There's no surprise that Father de Marchi was able to form a consensus description of a spinning color wheel of a sun, and no need for any actual event to justify his consensus."

Yeah I know it's something everyone's probably sick of, sorry! I'm still cutting my teeth as a skeptic, coming away from heavy Catholic indoctrination, so I appreciate your patience and willingness to answer!

I definately agree that a weather occurrence plus staring at the damn sun is the best answer, I just didn't have any info on how far away those things could be seen. I am still curious though about the entire occurrence. It's fascinating to me, honestly. Like, there were still some there who didn't see anything at all at Fatima, but if there were a sundog or halo, wouldn't everyone have seen it?

Offline SGOS

Re: Those who "witnessed" Fatimas miracle 18 km away
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2019, 01:00:55 PM »
Yeah I know it's something everyone's probably sick of, sorry! I'm still cutting my teeth as a skeptic, coming away from heavy Catholic indoctrination, so I appreciate your patience and willingness to answer!

I definately agree that a weather occurrence plus staring at the damn sun is the best answer, I just didn't have any info on how far away those things could be seen. I am still curious though about the entire occurrence. It's fascinating to me, honestly. Like, there were still some there who didn't see anything at all at Fatima, but if there were a sundog or halo, wouldn't everyone have seen it?
Not necessarily, I miss maybe 99% of all sunsets, right in my back yard.

And don't worry about boring us with your "newbie" observations.  I was once a confirmed Lutheran, and many years after the epiphany that converted me to atheism, I become more amazed at religious folly every day.

Re: Those who "witnessed" Fatimas miracle 18 km away
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2019, 01:14:56 PM »
The question I have for Catholics is how they interpret Matthew 23:9:
Quote
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Given this verse, why do they called their priests "Father" and why to they call their head guy "pope' which also means "Father"? How do you or your brother reconcile this?
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Re: Those who "witnessed" Fatimas miracle 18 km away
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2019, 01:19:21 PM »
Not necessarily, I miss maybe 99% of all sunsets, right in my back yard.

And don't worry about boring us with your "newbie" observations.  I was once a confirmed Lutheran, and many years after the epiphany that converted me to atheism, I become more amazed at religious folly every day.

I appreciate the welcoming attitude, thanks! I know a lot ofnus come from religious backgrounds and are all in different stages. I would say in about 90% along but I still have th ibgs I don't know how to express yet, and I don't always know how to answer religious apologetics

That is true, I don't always notice the surroubsingns either, but I mean more of, the people actually gathered there and activly looking. But even then, I suppose, if one were peering through the maid fingers at only the sun they woulsn t see a halo. If someone had poor vision or poor ability to focus, someone too blinded the sun to look more than a few seconds, maybe even those familiar with the funny way the sun can look at times not thinking anything of it? After all there were reports of similar solar shows reported in the weeks leading up to it. Any of these could account for those who saw nothing, do you think?

Re: Those who "witnessed" Fatimas miracle 18 km away
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2019, 01:28:23 PM »
The question I have for Catholics is how they interpret Matthew 23:9:
Given this verse, why do they called their priests "Father" and why to they call their head guy "pope' which also means "Father"? How do you or your brother reconcile this?

I believe they claim that they do not follow 'sol scriptura'.

So, basically they are free to accept or reject Bible passages, ad hoc.
And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence - Russell

Re: Those who "witnessed" Fatimas miracle 18 km away
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2019, 01:30:13 PM »
Superstition has always been very popular, especially among the poorly educated. And way back when, everyone was poorly educated.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Re: Those who "witnessed" Fatimas miracle 18 km away
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2019, 01:30:51 PM »
I believe they claim that they do not follow 'sol scriptura'.

So, basically they are free to accept or reject Bible passages, ad hoc.

That's a nice way to treat "the Word of God"!  LOL
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Offline SGOS

Re: Those who "witnessed" Fatimas miracle 18 km away
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2019, 01:37:17 PM »
That's a nice way to treat "the Word of God"!  LOL
Protestants would deny they do not follow the word of God, but Catholics canonize denial. It's a strange world.

Re: Those who "witnessed" Fatimas miracle 18 km away
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2019, 02:57:21 PM »
Yeah Catholics can look more towards the priesthood for their guidance than the bible and it's hypocritical as hell. The stereotype of Catholics not reading their bible is totally true