Author Topic: United States Greenlights Kurdish Genocide  (Read 3349 times)

Offline drunkenshoe

Re: United States Greenlights Kurdish Genocide
« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2019, 02:48:22 AM »
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So US forces were very nearly shelled today by our "ally", but that's cool because they were trying to shell Kurds and our guys just happened to get in the way.  Oopsie.

Why do you think this is not a real failure? Why would they try to shell US forces on purpose? It is counter productive and stupid. Frankly, I find your pr126 look to the situation pretty useless. Your point of view is 'Orcs are coming to destroy the human villages'. Or may be you think everyone would attack the US forces in the region? 

YPG hasn't fought with ISIL and protect the region to save the world or even destroy ISIL, they did it because otherwise ISIL would annihilate them. They would do the same thing no matter who were there. They wouldn't have fired a bullet to ISIL if they had served their agenda. And when/if that agenda changes, they will attack US forces. 

About civilians. Let me bring up me something far more important than 'nearly shelled' beyond just a possibility, PKK and YPG's main strategy has always been using suicide bombers to kill civilians and tied to that strategy or philosophy whatever you want to call it, they hide in civilian homes and use them as shields. Do you think those civilians are OK with that? They invade civilian homes, kidnap and use children old enough to carry a weapon as 'soldiers'. Like ISIL. They are fundamentalists too. Islamic fundamentalists, Communist Fundamentalists... Terrorist organisation don't make a good ally or fight with rules regarding to civilians. It's far worse than armies.

I guess, as 'Syrian Kurds' are not telling about these, oopsie, so it is all OK when it is your 'ally', right? It is bad when they are islamic fundamentalists, but OK if they some other one not in the menu today.

But in the end, either way, civilians over here at lethal risk, not in the US. 
« Last Edit: October 12, 2019, 03:22:10 AM by drunkenshoe »
'the wise man does not seek enlightenment, he waits for it. so while ı was waiting, it occurred to me that seeking perplexity might be more fun.’ - lu-tze

Offline drunkenshoe

Re: United States Greenlights Kurdish Genocide
« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2019, 03:09:19 AM »
These are from AA: Anadolu Agency. Even though the expression is annoying and forced, texts repeat, I doubt that there is anything else about these in the international news as in civilian death toll. There has been almost no reports in the general main stream media about previous PKK/YPG attacks on border, killing civilians. I am not giving any links from newspaper sites, because it is unreadable to me. Disgusting. I don't even click them.

E: OK Reuters and Aljazeera have mentions.

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Turkey: 2 civilians killed in YPG/PKK attack from Syria
Terrorist YPG/PKK targets civilians in Turkey’s border districts of Suruc and Nusaybin

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Turkey: 8 civilians martyred in YPG attack from Syria
Terrorist YPG/PKK targets civilians in Nusaybin district of Turkey’s southeastern Mardin province

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YPG/PKK rocket attacks injure 16 civilians in SE Turkey
Rockets and mortars fired from YPG/PKK-occupied areas in northern Syria hit Turkish border towns

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YPG/PKK attacks Syrian civilians, uses them as shields
One civilian killed and seven injured by terrorists in Jarablus district

« Last Edit: October 12, 2019, 03:20:11 AM by drunkenshoe »
'the wise man does not seek enlightenment, he waits for it. so while ı was waiting, it occurred to me that seeking perplexity might be more fun.’ - lu-tze

Offline Hydra009

Re: United States Greenlights Kurdish Genocide
« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2019, 09:55:39 PM »
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Why do you think this is not a real failure? Why would they try to shell US forces on purpose? It is counter productive and stupid.
Apparently, you're smarter than the actual people in charge, but You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login.

Of course, we shouldn't have boots on the ground there in the first place, and definitely not after Trump gave Erdogan free reign to let loose in the area.  But apparently, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login, which amazingly, doesn't even crack the top 10 personality misjudgements in the few years he's been in office.

Offline Hydra009

Re: United States Greenlights Kurdish Genocide
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2019, 10:01:05 PM »
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There has been almost no reports in the general main stream media about previous PKK/YPG attacks on border, killing civilians.
Admittedly, I did not know this (1 dead 7 injured is more akin to a rough day at a Texas elementary school rather than an armed conflict) but for the sake of argument, let's say some Kurds are attacking Turks at the border.  Is the sensible response to send in the tanks and start shelling?

Because I guarantee, if Israel did something like that, you (and I) would be sickened by that.  And that's not even a hypothetical.  Things along those lines have happened and we have reacted that way, only this time only one of us is having that reaction now.  What changed?
« Last Edit: October 14, 2019, 10:10:10 PM by Hydra009 »

Offline Hydra009

Re: United States Greenlights Kurdish Genocide
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2019, 10:08:57 PM »
And here's a classic example of how this whole thing is a HUGE mistake:  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login  Basically, another gigantic middle eastern clusterf*ck.

Shoe, do you honestly look at news like this and have even the tiniest glimmer of hope that everything's going to work out fine?  Because I guarantee you, it won't.

Offline Hydra009

Re: United States Greenlights Kurdish Genocide
« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2019, 10:13:41 PM »
And one last thing, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login involved in reporting this developing conflict:

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So now we can't even be sure we're getting an accurate picture of what's going on from generally accepted sources, to say nothing of obviously untrustworthy sites.  The first casualty of war...

Offline drunkenshoe

Re: United States Greenlights Kurdish Genocide
« Reply #36 on: October 15, 2019, 11:04:14 AM »
Hydra, how did I give the impression that I think everything is going to work out fine? That's not possible with any armed conflict much less complicated than this. My reaction is to the general attitude.

What do you want me to say? I am trying to keep this as unemotional as possible from my point of view. I am upset and depressed because this is going to have a real impact on my life with American sanctions made as a result of American policies and president's game and a natural reaction of the country I live in.  Dollar is gonna fly and frankly I don't know what my purchase power will fall down to. You know what I am thinking? Will there be a civil war in my country? When are we going to become Syria in the end? Shall I be able to buy meat or a bottle of wine next year? And then I am thinking people are running away for their lives and feel bad about I am thinking about buying food and drinks. Then I wonder how many civilians more will be killed in the border villages -Turkish-Kurdish- by their kinship... 

And you people are talking about 'policing' the world. Rewarding...


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Apparently, you're smarter than the actual people in charge, but You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login.

I hadn't seen any information of the sort when I posted. Did you know that before you wrote it? So I wasn't being sarcastic, I was refering to the general attitude which can be understood from the following in the post.

When the US troops are invading somewhere, it is to protect the country, its benefits and interests; it's business. But with Turkish troops people scream their head off 'ethnic cleansing!', 'genocide!'. The thing is the president over here is doing the same thing all the other US presidents have done before. He is a business man like Trump. This was going to happen with or without Erdoğan. Because if they do not do this we will fall in Syria’s position in time. There is a threat on a soverign country’s borders. What do you expect?

All I hear you say is 'We can do it, you can't.' It's what the whole ME has been hearing for the last two hundred years or so. That's your example.

Quote
Of course, we shouldn't have boots on the ground there in the first place, and definitely not after Trump gave Erdogan free reign to let loose in the area.  But apparently, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login, which amazingly, doesn't even crack the top 10 personality misjudgements in the few years he's been in office.

You need to check the history of the US using Kurdish tribes in the region for various policies, conflicts in the past. This goes back to beginning of the 1960s to Saddam Husseyin.

Quote
Of course, we shouldn't have boots on the ground there in the first place, ...

See, this is a completely different question in the big picture. Seriously, what have you been doing there? As I said before, from British Empire to the US reigning in the area, invading around, promising ethnic tribes lands, playing this one with the other for a 100 years -yeah tribes, the numbers don't change anything that's the life style, that’s the vision- is what brought this situation to this point. Because frankly, nobody actually has that authority, it is just a long time military threat and a political game. And it is bound to explode here and there. Because PKK/YPG are terrorist organisations and do kill in Turkey systematically. And the country will react to it. Again this is not about Erdoğan. Again, because integrity of borders of a country is under serious threat.

Can you imagine Mexicans bombing around in around border cities or even in big cities? Claiming land? What wold the US do? Vaporise the whole country? Or they would have been already annihilated a hundred years ago?

As far as I understand, Trump is only thinking about shooting a few birds with one stone. He just wants to keep appearances, not to engage with in any real conflict, wants to distract and keep people/politicians in the US outraged.  But if you think about it, this is generally a republican policy what he did. It’s just the climate makes it extreme. Obviously, there isn’t a good money there.

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And here's a classic example of how this whole thing is a HUGE mistake:  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login  Basically, another gigantic middle eastern clusterf*ck.

And then after this they will go on killing each other and civillians in the region. Hydra, if you have read my posts in this thread I am the one who is saying ‘what allies?’

Also I am sure there are more fake news out there, I didn’t post anything fake knowingly.

But none of them beats down labeling terrorist groups as ‘heroes’ for years, ‘oh because we weaponised them and so they helped us'. Against what? Another extremist-terrorist group that would annihilate them anyway. 
 
« Last Edit: October 15, 2019, 01:44:41 PM by drunkenshoe »
'the wise man does not seek enlightenment, he waits for it. so while ı was waiting, it occurred to me that seeking perplexity might be more fun.’ - lu-tze

Offline drunkenshoe

Re: United States Greenlights Kurdish Genocide
« Reply #37 on: October 15, 2019, 11:07:51 AM »
About the US 'policing' the world and keeping order. And this is from an opposition point to the existence of my country.

Allies, promises, world policing...

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THE U.S. IS NOW BETRAYING THE KURDS FOR THE EIGHTH TIME

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What Krugman left out, however, is the most likely explanation: (d) Trump is president of the United States. Nothing in this world is certain except death, taxes, and America betraying the Kurds.

The U.S. has now betrayed the Kurds a minimum of eight times over the past 100 years. The reasons for this are straightforward.

The Kurds are an ethnic group of about 40 million people centered at the intersection of Turkey, Syria, Iran, and Iraq. Many naturally want their own state. The four countries in which they live naturally do not want that to happen.

On the one hand, the Kurds are a perfect tool for U.S. foreign policy. We can arm the Kurds in whichever of these countries is currently our enemy, whether to make trouble for that country’s government or to accomplish various other objectives. On the other hand, we don’t want the Kurds we’re utilizing to ever get too powerful. If that happened, the other Kurds — i.e., the ones living just across the border in whichever of these countries are currently our allies — might get ideas about freedom and independence.

Here’s how that dynamic has played out, over and over and over again since World War I.

1 — Like many other nationalisms, Kurdish nationalism blossomed during the late 1800s. At this point, all of the Kurdish homeland was ruled by the sprawling Ottoman Empire, centered in present day-Turkey. But the Ottoman Empire collapsed after fighting on the losing side of World War I. This, the Kurds understandably believed, was their moment.

The 1920 Treaty of Sèvres completely dismembered the Ottoman Empire, including most of what’s now Turkey, and allocated a section for a possible Kurdistan. But the Turks fought back, making enough trouble that the U.S. supported a new treaty in 1923, the Treaty of Lausanne. The Treaty of Lausanne allowed the British and French to carve off present-day Iraq and Syria, respectively, for themselves. But it made no provision for the Kurds.

This was America’s first, and smallest, betrayal of the Kurds. At this point, the main Kurdish betrayals were handled by the British, who crushed the short-lived Kingdom of Kurdistan in Iraq during the early 1920s. A few years later, the British were happy to see the establishment of a Kurdish “Republic of Ararat,” because it was on Turkish territory. But it turned out that the Turks were more important to the British than the Kurds, so the United Kingdom eventually let Turkey go ahead and extinguish the new country.

This was the kind of thing that gave the British Empire the nickname “perfidious Albion.” Now America has taken up the perfidious mantle.

2 — After World War II, the U.S. gradually assumed the British role as main colonial power in the Mideast. We armed Iraqi Kurds during the rule of Abdel Karim Kassem, who governed Iraq from 1958 to 1963, because Kassem was failing to follow orders.

We then supported a 1963 military coup — which included a small supporting role by a young Saddam Hussein — that removed Kassem from power. We immediately cut off our aid to the Kurds and, in fact, provided the new Iraqi government with napalm to use against them.

3 — By the 1970s, the Iraqi government had drifted into the orbit of the Soviet Union. The Nixon administration, led by Henry Kissinger, hatched a plan with Iran (then our ally, ruled by the Shah) to arm Iraqi Kurds.

The plan wasn’t for the Kurds in Iraq to win, since that might encourage the Kurds in Iran to rise up themselves. It was just to bleed the Iraqi government. But as a congressional report later put it, “This policy was not imparted to our clients, who were encouraged to continue fighting. Even in the context of covert action ours was a cynical enterprise.”

Then the U.S. signed off on agreements between the Shah and Saddam that included severing aid to the Kurds. The Iraqi military moved north and slaughtered thousands, as the U.S. ignored heart-rending pleas from our erstwhile Kurdish allies. When questioned, a blasé Kissinger explained that “covert action should not be confused with missionary work.”

4 — During the 1980s, the Iraqi government moved on to actual genocide against the Kurds, including the use of chemical weapons. The Reagan administration was well aware of Saddam’s use of nerve gas, but because they liked the damage Saddam was doing to Iran, it opposed congressional efforts to impose sanctions on Iraq. The U.S. media also faithfully played its role. When a Washington Post reporter tried to get the paper to publish a photograph of a Kurd killed by chemical weapons, his editor responded, “Who will care?”

5 — As the U.S. bombed Iraq during the Gulf War in 1991, George H.W. Bush famously called on “the Iraqi military and Iraqi people to take matters into their own hands, to force Saddam Hussein, the dictator, to step aside.” Both Iraqi Shias in southern Iraq and Iraqi Kurds in northern Iraq heard this and tried to do exactly that.

It turned out that Bush wasn’t being 100 percent honest about his feelings on this subject. The U.S. military stood down as Iraq massacred the rebels across the country.

Why? New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman soon explained that “Mr. Bush never supported the Kurdish and Shiite rebellions against Mr. Hussein, or for that matter any democracy movement in Iraq” because Saddam’s “iron fist simultaneously held Iraq together, much to the satisfaction of the American allies Turkey and Saudi Arabia.” What the U.S. wanted was for the Iraqi military, not regular people, to take charge. “Then,” Friedman wrote, “Washington would have the best of all worlds: an iron-fisted Iraqi junta without Saddam Hussein.”

6 — Nevertheless, the dying Iraqi Kurds looked so bad on international television that the Bush administration was forced to do something. The U.S. eventually supported what was started as a British effort to protect Kurds in northern Iraq.

During the Clinton administration in the 1990s, these Kurds, the Iraqi Kurds, were the good Kurds. Because they were persecuted by Iraq, our enemy, they were worthy of U.S. sympathy. But the Kurds a few miles north in Turkey started getting uppity too, and since they were annoying our ally, they were the bad Kurds. The U.S. sent Turkey huge amounts of weaponry, which it used — with U.S. knowledge — to murder tens of thousands of Kurds and destroy thousands of villages.

7 — Before the Iraq War in 2003, pundits such as Christopher Hitchens said we had to do it to help the Kurds. By contrast, Pentagon Papers whistleblower Daniel Ellsberg had this dour exchange with neoconservative William Kristol on C-SPAN just as the war started:

Ellsberg: The Kurds have every reason to believe they will be betrayed again by the United States, as so often in the past. The spectacle of our inviting Turks into this war … could not have been reassuring to the Kurds …

Kristol: I’m against betraying the Kurds. Surely your point isn’t that because we betrayed them in the past, we should betray them this time?

Ellsberg: Not that we should, just that we will.

Kristol: We will not. We will not.

Ellsberg, of course, was correct. The post-war independence of Iraqi Kurds made Turkey extremely nervous. In 2007, the U.S. allowed Turkey to carry out a heavy bombing campaign against Iraqi Kurds inside Iraq. By this point, Kristol’s magazine the Weekly Standard was declaring that this betrayal was exactly what America should be doing.

With Trump’s thumbs-up for another slaughter of the Kurds, America is now on betrayal No. 8. Whatever you want to say about U.S. actions, no one can deny that we’re consistent.

The Kurds have an old, famous adage that they “have no friends but the mountains.” Now more than ever, it’s hard to argue that that’s wrong.
'the wise man does not seek enlightenment, he waits for it. so while ı was waiting, it occurred to me that seeking perplexity might be more fun.’ - lu-tze

Offline AllPurposeAtheist

Re: United States Greenlights Kurdish Genocide
« Reply #38 on: October 15, 2019, 12:18:41 PM »
I suspect that the real villains behind the entire mess would be the war mongers that make and sell weapons around the world.  If you're core business is making and selling bombs there's no profit to be had from a peaceful existence anywhere other than your own front yard.
Somebody sold weapons to every side and will continue to sell to the highest bidder and even those who bid low, but just enough to turn a profit.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2019, 12:20:58 PM by AllPurposeAtheist »
All hail my new signature!

Admit it. You're secretly green with envy.

Offline Baruch

Re: United States Greenlights Kurdish Genocide
« Reply #39 on: October 15, 2019, 01:27:30 PM »
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Admittedly, I did not know this (1 dead 7 injured is more akin to a rough day at a Texas elementary school rather than an armed conflict) but for the sake of argument, let's say some Kurds are attacking Turks at the border.  Is the sensible response to send in the tanks and start shelling?

Because I guarantee, if Israel did something like that, you (and I) would be sickened by that.  And that's not even a hypothetical.  Things along those lines have happened and we have reacted that way, only this time only one of us is having that reaction now.  What changed?

Israeli AF flies where they want, all the way back to 1981 when they destroyed the Iraqi experimental reactor.  And more recently when Israel destroyed the Syrian experimental reactor.  If the US hadn't been all over Iraq, Syria etc since 2009, fighting groups Israel tells the US to fight, supporting groups Israel tells the US to support, then Israel would have to do all of it themselves, arguably a worse situation.

Of course part of the terrorists were and still are US sponsored.  Al Qaida was and remains, a US supported terrorist group.  Maybe they went rogue on 9/11, maybe not ;-(  We still don't know what really happened in Las Vegas 2 years ago.  Kurdish terrorists are mostly an old local problem.  They take aid where they can get it, even from Damascus and the Russians, if necessary.
Zampa xiquihto.  Amo nimitzcuamachilia.
Say it again.  I don't understand you.

Offline Baruch

Re: United States Greenlights Kurdish Genocide
« Reply #40 on: October 15, 2019, 01:30:24 PM »
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I suspect that the real villains behind the entire mess would be the war mongers that make and sell weapons around the world.  If you're core business is making and selling bombs there's no profit to be had from a peaceful existence anywhere other than your own front yard.
Somebody sold weapons to every side and will continue to sell to the highest bidder and even those who bid low, but just enough to turn a profit.

Soros as agent provocateur has nothing on the original ...

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The US made out on arms, 1914-1918 and 1939-1945, supplying GB and other allies.  The West was pulled out of Depression by WW II, and the post war miracle happened because of the Cold War.  Aside from financial problems with the Vietnam War and the gold standard, ME wars with Israel ... the Petrol Dollar has kept things going from 1971 - 1991.  The year 2000 and 2008-2009 debacles were the result of not enough war.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2019, 01:33:15 PM by Baruch »
Zampa xiquihto.  Amo nimitzcuamachilia.
Say it again.  I don't understand you.

Offline drunkenshoe

Re: United States Greenlights Kurdish Genocide
« Reply #41 on: October 15, 2019, 01:36:05 PM »
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I suspect that the real villains behind the entire mess would be the war mongers that make and sell weapons around the world.  If you're core business is making and selling bombs there's no profit to be had from a peaceful existence anywhere other than your own front yard.
Somebody sold weapons to every side and will continue to sell to the highest bidder and even those who bid low, but just enough to turn a profit.

It's not just about selling weapons and profit per se, it is about the policies forced. Weapons are not sold for ornamenting houses, they are sold for to be used for a specific purpose.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2019, 01:39:05 PM by drunkenshoe »
'the wise man does not seek enlightenment, he waits for it. so while ı was waiting, it occurred to me that seeking perplexity might be more fun.’ - lu-tze

Offline Baruch

Re: United States Greenlights Kurdish Genocide
« Reply #42 on: October 15, 2019, 01:40:43 PM »
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It's not just about selling weapons and profit per se, it is about the policies forced. Weapons are not sold for ornamenting houses, they are sold for to be used for a specific purpose.

Like killing Shia in Yemen?  How is that working out?
Zampa xiquihto.  Amo nimitzcuamachilia.
Say it again.  I don't understand you.

Offline drunkenshoe

Re: United States Greenlights Kurdish Genocide
« Reply #43 on: October 15, 2019, 01:41:54 PM »
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Like killing Shia in Yemen?  How is that working out?

Exactly the same way we are talking about, my dear moron.
'the wise man does not seek enlightenment, he waits for it. so while ı was waiting, it occurred to me that seeking perplexity might be more fun.’ - lu-tze

Offline Baruch

Re: United States Greenlights Kurdish Genocide
« Reply #44 on: October 15, 2019, 01:44:43 PM »
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Exactly the same way we are talking about, my dear moron.

“The best laid schemes o' mice an' men / Gang aft a-gley.” - Robert Burns.  Things don't work out as planned, even in Scotland.

But no statecraft is based on morality or ethics.  But on individual and group interest.  See Julius Caesar or Alp Arslan.  From ancient Athens down to today, democracy is based on group delusion.
Zampa xiquihto.  Amo nimitzcuamachilia.
Say it again.  I don't understand you.

 

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