"Reverse mortgage" an obvious scam.

[AllPurposeAtheist]

FINE! Just log me out and not remember my username and pw.. make.me retype it!

Note: just something to bitch about.. :)

[SGOS]

OK. There is a swindle where a salesman tells you that a certain stock is going to sky-rocket and you should invest in it for a fee. It is also sent to 1,000 people. And then he sends to another thousand people not to invest in the stock because it will fail. He publishes the results and sends it to everyone he advised. They all believe he is up front because he was accurate in his advice. So then he convinces everyone to buy stock in any company by investing all their money in it for a huge fee. He can't lose, just like the mortgage companies can't.  :-k  Solitary

And it's a very clever swindle indeed.  I wish I could think of shit like that, but I guess my brain isn't very good at that kind of stuff.  LOL

And no! Mortgage companies don't lose.  It's not in their business strategy, but if they do, they ask the government to bail them out.  The bailout is then entered in the assets column of their financial books, and Waalah!  It turns out they're still profitable.

I've wondered at times why subprime mortgaging should be legal, while Bernie Madoff goes to jail.  They just used different ideas to make a profit.  One idea seems just fine, but for some reason, the other one is unlawful.  :)

[Solitary]

I'm always leery when something is "free" or sounds too good to be true. My dad got caught in a race horse scam when I was around 15. A man told him he had a sure thing on a race horse to win if he bet on it. Of course it won. This took place many times. the man told him again that he was sure a race horse was going to win---my dad thought he was being up front and put his life savings on the horse---it came in last. The bookies at the time got the results of a race before it was made public and knew who would win or lose. So it made them seem upfront when they gave advice. What funny about this is the man who gave my dad advice was my wife's uncle I found out a few years ago.  :shock:  :rollin: Solitary

[Plu]

This talk of houses for $50,000 makes me hope that's talk from ages past. Because I sure as hell can't find any housing in my area that goes for less than 150,000e and they're not exactly really big or anything.

[AllPurposeAtheist]

This talk of houses for $50,000 makes me hope that's talk from ages past. Because I sure as hell can't find any housing in my area that goes for less than 150,000e and they're not exactly really big or anything.

Depends where you live. In Dayton plenty of houses still go for under 50k, but they're generally shitty areas. If you don't mind crack heads and arsonists... :D/

[surly74]

OK. There is a swindle where a salesman tells you that a certain stock is going to sky-rocket and you should invest in it for a fee. It is also sent to 1,000 people. And then he sends to another thousand people not to invest in the stock because it will fail. He publishes the results and sends it to everyone he advised. They all believe he is up front because he was accurate in his advice. So then he convinces everyone to buy stock in any company by investing all their money in it for a huge fee. He can't lose, just like the mortgage companies can't.  :-k  Solitary

has this ever happend? a salesman doesn't have the power to affect stock prices like this even if he sent it to 1000 people.

[Plu]

The trick is to take both possibilities, tell two different groups that one of the two is going to happen, and then scrap the group that got the wrong answer and continue with the group you got right.

The salesmen doesn't need power; just two faces to present to two unrelated groups.

If the stock rises, group A will think you give good advice. If the stock falls, group B will think you give good advice. Either way, you now have a bunch of people who think you give good advice. And then you use this newfound (but baseless) trust to fuck people over.

[surly74]

The trick is to take both possibilities, tell two different groups that one of the two is going to happen, and then scrap the group that got the wrong answer and continue with the group you got right.

The salesmen doesn't need power; just two faces to present to two unrelated groups.

If the stock rises, group A will think you give good advice. If the stock falls, group B will think you give good advice. Either way, you now have a bunch of people who think you give good advice. And then you use this newfound (but baseless) trust to fuck people over.

yeah but this is a theoretical scenario that really can't exists. I do have some first hand knowledge having been in the business working toward my certified financial planner designation. There was however a way to make alot of money very quickly and that was called "leveraging" or "buying on margin".

On paper it has the makings to work really well, borrow money to buy stock or in most cases mutual funds. most countries have tax shelters to allow people to do this, you don't pay the loans off but keep the profit when you sell. The problem is when the stock or MF value goes under the loan amount and you have your "margin call". you are left paying back the loan (sucks if you used the equity in your home) for something of very little value.

on paper it's good, it makes the salesperson alot of money really fast and makes them look good if the MF or stock goes up. If it doesn't then people lose alot of money.

it becomes a "scam" or unethical when you get people to leverage more than they normally would based on projected returns.

[Plu]

yeah but this is a theoretical scenario that really can't exists.

Pretty sure the whole mind-reading industry runs on this. There's a lot of money to be made duping people like that.

[surly74]

yeah but this is a theoretical scenario that really can't exists.

Pretty sure the whole mind-reading industry runs on this. There's a lot of money to be made duping people like that.

yes but psyics and cold readers are charging people for a service the people think are real (the people paying).

I'm still trying to figure out how the stock scenario makes any sense and how someone actually makes money from it. To me it's too much like a book maker setting odds so that bets are equal on both sides.

[surly74]

A scam is a confidence game or other fraudulent scheme, esp. for making a quick profit; swindle. In what way is a reverse mortgage not a scam? The companies profiting from them are swindling money, or even a house by doing it. Solitary

maybe bank regulations are different in US and Canada regarding reverse mortgages but it doesn't sound like a scam. it's just using the equity in your home to get cash.

//http://www.reverseyourmortgage.ca/faq/frequently-asked-questions/

[Plu]

Cold readers basically tell everyone the same story, and then for some people the story will match (through chance) but because these people don't know that the guy tells everyone the same thing (and he's certainly not going to tell them) it suddenly appears like he can read their mind and they are willing to give him money.

Imagine this:
I take 1000 people, and split them in two groups, and tell one group that stock X will rise and the other that stock X will fall. Stock X rises. I now have 500 people that I gave good advice. I drop the other 500. I split the 500 in two groups, and tell one group that stock Y will rise and the other half that stock Y will fall. Stock Y falls. I now have 250 people that I gave the exactly correct advice twice in a row! I split the group again and repeat the trick. And again. And again. And again.

I now end up with with about 10 people that I gave perfect advice 8 times in a row! I must be the best stock investor ever! Why, everything I say turns out just as I predicted it! So imagine if I now tell these 10 people who got the right advice 8 times in a row to invest all their life savings in a company I secretly own (or whatever way I can come up with to move their money to my bank account.) They have every reason to trust me; they don't know about the 990 people that ditches me for giving bad advice; all they see is a guy who always calls the shots right.

If you don't care who you end up with, or how many people you lose, or fuck over, this kind of trick works really well to seperate people from their money. The whole starting scenario is just to build their trust; with a big enough sample group, and proper seperation, some members of the sample group will think you know what you're doing. As long as members of different groups don't meet, this kind of swindling works really well.

[SGOS]

The trick is to take both possibilities, tell two different groups that one of the two is going to happen, and then scrap the group that got the wrong answer and continue with the group you got right.

The salesmen doesn't need power; just two faces to present to two unrelated groups.

If the stock rises, group A will think you give good advice. If the stock falls, group B will think you give good advice. Either way, you now have a bunch of people who think you give good advice. And then you use this newfound (but baseless) trust to fuck people over.

yeah but this is a theoretical scenario that really can't exists.

Actually, there are two scenarios, not one.  You predict a gain for one group.  A loss for another group.  The mathematical probability that one will win and one will lose is 100%  You just throw out the group that loses.  They won't listen to you again, but the group than makes a profit is now interested.  Now divide the winners into two groups.  You tell half of them to bet big, and the other not to bet, and which ever group you happen to inform correctly, becomes the next target group to be divided for the next prediction.

Start with a big enough group, and after 5 times you end with mostly losers, but what's left is a small core of highly motivated lucky winners, some of whom assume you have psychic powers and will be easy to scam.

The situation does exist.  It has to.  There is no possibility that it won't.  You are mathematically assured to end up with a group of winners who think you gave them good advice 2, 3, or 10 times.  After you go through the process of discarding the losers, it's time to call up your schmoozing talents, and fuck them over big time.  Some are so enthralled, they might even bet the farm.

It's extremely clever, I think.

[surly74]

Imagine this:
I take 1000 people, and split them in two groups, and tell one group that stock X will rise and the other that stock X will fall. Stock X rises. I now have 500 people that I gave good advice. I drop the other 500. I split the 500 in two groups, and tell one group that stock Y will rise and the other half that stock Y will fall. Stock Y falls. I now have 250 people that I gave the exactly correct advice twice in a row! I split the group again and repeat the trick. And again. And again. And again.

I now end up with with about 10 people that I gave perfect advice 8 times in a row! I must be the best stock investor ever! Why, everything I say turns out just as I predicted it! So imagine if I now tell these 10 people who got the right advice 8 times in a row to invest all their life savings in a company I secretly own (or whatever way I can come up with to move their money to my bank account.) They have every reason to trust me; they don't know about the 990 people that ditches me for giving bad advice; all they see is a guy who always calls the shots right.

If you don't care who you end up with, or how many people you lose, or fuck over, this kind of trick works really well to seperate people from their money. The whole starting scenario is just to build their trust; with a big enough sample group, and proper seperation, some members of the sample group will think you know what you're doing. As long as members of different groups don't meet, this kind of swindling works really well.

really an intricate ponzi scheme. you could do this a lot quicker printing your own documentation that says what your company has done in the past.

[surly74]

The situation does exist.  It has to.  There is no possibility that it won't.  You are mathematically assured to end up with a group of winners who think you gave them good advice 2, 3, or 10 times.  After you go through the process of discarding the losers, it's time to call up your schmoozing talents, and fuck them over big time.  Some are so enthralled, they might even bet the farm.

It's extremely clever, I think.

clever is too hard to pull off. it needs to be simple.