Discovery

[Baruch]

Only a 10,000 year journey?  Wikipedia offers sources saying it was about 166 million years ago.  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Since last mutation, baby rug.

[Cavebear]

i look forward to you doing that to yourself ;-(  Just an atheist form of immortality.

One more step in directed evolution...

[Baruch]

One more step in directed evolution...

Random evolution of random moving atoms.

[Cavebear]

Random evolution of random moving atoms.

That's an interesting idea.  I understand that evolution mostly works by genetic mutation, and I know that genes are complex molecules, but I don't really know what changes in a gene to cause a mutation.  I looked it up, of course, but biology is not my best subject.

[Baruch]

That's an interesting idea.  I understand that evolution mostly works by genetic mutation, and I know that genes are complex molecules, but I don't really know what changes in a gene to cause a mutation.  I looked it up, of course, but biology is not my best subject.

Not all genes are expressed.  Only mutations in egg/sperm can be inherited.  Usually most gene mechanics happens in chunks (the expression).  Most mutations, when expressed, are harmful.  Rarely is novelty beneficial.  Meanwhile for most critters, the sex card shuffle continues.  For us, after 6 generations, most genes of most ancestors have been flushed away (1 chance in 46*64 or 1/2944) a low odds for any of the many chromosomes of all ancestors to still be in your genome).  You basically lose half of your ancestral genome every generation.  This is in addition to the randomization that occurs which is also beneficial.

[Cavebear]

Not all genes are expressed.  Only mutations in egg/sperm can be inherited.  Usually most gene mechanics happens in chunks (the expression).  Most mutations, when expressed, are harmful.  Rarely is novelty beneficial.  Meanwhile for most critters, the sex card shuffle continues.  For us, after 6 generations, most genes of most ancestors have been flushed away (1 chance in 46*64 or 1/2944) a low odds for any of the many chromosomes of all ancestors to still be in your genome).  You basically lose half of your ancestral genome every generation.  This is in addition to the randomization that occurs which is also beneficial.

Thank you, and I always appreciate informative posts, but I didn't mean I was ignorant on the subject, just that I realized that I didn't know exactly how mutations occur biologically with chemicals or cosmic particles etc affecting genes.  I understand that genes are made of DNA combinations and DNA is made of molecules. And that molecules can be made of almost any combination of atoms.

What I was trying to ask (poorly, it seems) was what exactly happens in a gene that changes it?  When I search the question, most sites provide answers that are either too simplistic or too technical.

[Baruch]

Thank you, and I always appreciate informative posts, but I didn't mean I was ignorant on the subject, just that I realized that I didn't know exactly how mutations occur biologically with chemicals or cosmic particles etc affecting genes.  I understand that genes are made of DNA combinations and DNA is made of molecules. And that molecules can be made of almost any combination of atoms.

What I was trying to ask (poorly, it seems) was what exactly happens in a gene that changes it?  When I search the question, most sites provide answers th at are either too simplistic or too technical.

Well, I had to have enough biology to do enough medicine, to understand medical administration.  But no longer.  Fortunately I did it long enough that I don't miss it.  For other readers …

Mutation happens because of chemical reactions that shouldn't be there (mutagen), radiation damage, or mechanical error (the cell mechanisms are mind boggling and can't be chance).  So basically, you have both nuclear and mitochondrial DNA.  The mitochondrial DNA is only from your mother's egg and it controls your basic metabolism.  Everything else happens because of the nuclear DNA (in particular, protein synthesis).  Half contributed by mom and half by dad.

[Cavebear]

Well, I had to have enough biology to do enough medicine, to understand medical administration.  But no longer.  Fortunately I did it long enough that I don't miss it.  For other readers …

Mutation happens because of chemical reactions that shouldn't be there (mutagen), radiation damage, or mechanical error (the cell mechanisms are mind boggling and can't be chance).  So basically, you have both nuclear and mitochondrial DNA.  The mitochondrial DNA is only from your mother's egg and it controls your basic metabolism.  Everything else happens because of the nuclear DNA (in particular, protein synthesis).  Half contributed by mom and half by dad.

OK, AFTER I said I understood the basics, that was pretty insulting.

What I'm TRYING to get at is how and what happens when a molecule in DNA in a gene is altered.  I'm trying to understand the mechanics of the event.  I guess I will have to dig deeper into the websites I thought were too complex.

[Baruch]

OK, AFTER I said I understood the basics, that was pretty insulting.

What I'm TRYING to get at is how and what happens when a molecule in DNA in a gene is altered.  I'm trying to understand the mechanics of the event.  I guess I will have to dig deeper into the websites I thought were too complex.

 
Not intended that way at all.  I wasn't assuming you knew less than you said.  But was trying to cover the whole audience.  Ego much?  Yes, you have a very health ego ;-)

Protein synthesis is complicated.  RNA, amino acids, all that.  The expression part at the gene level (via RNA) is way complicated.  Magic really.  Topology of coiled DNA (it doesn't unroll except at cell division).  Don't pay attention to what that molecule is doing,  the one you aren't paying attention to is sawing the lady chromosome in half.  So no, I don't have an easier way to summarize at THAT level.  I simplified because I had to.  PhD level shit.  One chromosome, unrolled is 2 inches long.  Coiled up like a phone cord from hell, it is tiny enough to fit in the nuclear part of a cell.  Crazy shit.  How many nuceotides is that?  About 250 million base pairs.  And there are 46 of them.

[Cavebear]

Not intended that way at all.  I wasn't assuming you knew less than you said.  But was trying to cover the whole audience.  Ego much?  Yes, you have a very health ego ;-)

Protein synthesis is complicated.  RNA, amino acids, all that.  The expression part at the gene level (via RNA) is way complicated.  Magic really.  Topology of coiled DNA (it doesn't unroll except at cell division).  Don't pay attention to what that molecule is doing,  the one you aren't paying attention to is sawing the lady chromosome in half.  So no, I don't have an easier way to summarize at THAT level.  I simplified because I had to.  PhD level shit.

I'll try one more time.  It isn't the expression of genes that I'm trying to understand.  It isn't that genes cause mutations that I'm trying to understand.  What I'm trying to understand is what happens to the atoms or molecules in proteins in DNA in genes and causes a change.

Can anyone help me here?  Baruch is wandering around in 8th grade biology...

[Baruch]

I'll try one more time.  It isn't the expression of genes that I'm trying to understand.  It isn't that genes cause mutations that I'm trying to understand.  What I'm trying to understand is what happens to the atoms or molecules in proteins in DNA in genes and causes a change.

Can anyone help me here?  Baruch is wandering around in 8th grade biology...

The old atoms aren't lost.  They are skipped (in terms of pairing when the whole DNA is there, R and L halves.  Now why a particular codon (a section of DNA in a chromosome that does something) does a particular thing, well that is complicated.  There is a lot of debate about Junk DNA.  But I think current thought is that there is no junk, just DNA we don't understand.

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For the last 20 years, junk DNA was a meme with molecular biologists.  But it is wrong.  It controls the topology.

I had to listen to the Brandenberg Concertos to keep my brain at high functional level to express what I couldn't articulate as well.

[Cavebear]

The old atoms aren't lost.  They are skipped (in terms of pairing when the whole DNA is there, R and L halves.  Now why a particular codon (a section of DNA in a chromosome that does something) does a particular thing, well that is complicated.  There is a lot of debate about Junk DNA.  But I think current thought is that there is no junk, just DNA we don't understand.

For the last 20 years, junk DNA was a meme with molecular biologists.  But it is wrong.  It controls the topology.

I had to listen to the Brandenberg Concertos to keep my brain at high functional level to express what I couldn't articulate as well.

WHAT DOES A FUCKING COSMIC RAY ACTUALLY DO THAT CHANGES DNA?

[Baruch]

Breaks the hydrogen-bond between two opposing strands of DNA.  They should match, but they don't.

4 letter code.  On one strand you have ABCDs … on the other strand this has to match up with DCBA.  On that model ...

ABBCDABCD matches to DCCBADCBA … but no nuclear transformation of lead to gold …
ABBCDABCD now matches DCBADCBA … the first B remains unmatched.  Because it can.  And a new topology results.

Radiation damage from ingesting fallout is much worse.  Cancer and ruined eggs/sperm.

[Cavebear]

Breaks the hydrogen-bond between two opposing strands of DNA. 

Thank you.  That's the kind of thing I was trying to understand.

[Baruch]

Thank you.  That's the kind of thing I was trying to understand.

Glad you could handle the lack of graphics.  So much easier that way.

One of my irritating characteristics is ... never giving up.