Author Topic: Monarchial America ... a different history in 3 versions  (Read 213 times)

Offline Cavebear

Re: Monarchial America ... a different history in 3 versions
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2019, 12:20:07 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Yes, Attila also violated tourist visa in Rome Italy.  N Italy ravaged, then Rome/Pope bought him off, and he returned north from there.

I do remember that.  Well, not personally, of course.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: Monarchial America ... a different history in 3 versions
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2019, 01:28:49 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I do remember that.  Well, not personally, of course.

I have just two Roman gold coins.  One from West, the other from East Roman Empire.  They survive because many thousands of them were offered up as tribute.  They are the least rare of Roman gold.  One to Alaric the Ostrogoth.  The other to Atilla.  Either could have passed thru the rough hands of Atilla.  The W Roman one, either Atilla or Alaric the Ostrogoth.  Both are like new, because Roman or Barbarian used them as savings, not as currency.  By the late Roman Empire, hyperinflation had taken hold (after 265 CE the Roman economy collapsed, with subsequent attempts to stabilize, that failed).  The solidus, the late Roman gold coin, was what your military, Roman or Barbarian auxiliary expected to be paid in (one per month).  Basically equal to 4 bushels of grain, the minimal cash required for a family to function for a month on non-barter goods.  At best, the economy was 1/2 monetized.  By the time of Atilla, everyone had gone back to barter until the Byzantines did temporarily achieve some stability.  Alaric and his Ostrogoths came to Rome first, by two generations.  Rome refused to pay up to their Auxiliaries.  The Goths worked for the Romans, and had fled to the Roman Empire to escape the Huns.  Atilla of course wanted it … because it was shiny.
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Cavebear

Re: Monarchial America ... a different history in 3 versions
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2019, 02:09:06 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I have just two Roman gold coins.  One from West, the other from East Roman Empire.  They survive because many thousands of them were offered up as tribute.  They are the least rare of Roman gold.  One to Alaric the Ostrogoth.  The other to Atilla.  Either could have passed thru the rough hands of Atilla.  The W Roman one, either Atilla or Alaric the Ostrogoth.  Both are like new, because Roman or Barbarian used them as savings, not as currency.  By the late Roman Empire, hyperinflation had taken hold (after 265 CE the Roman economy collapsed, with subsequent attempts to stabilize, that failed).  The solidus, the late Roman gold coin, was what your military, Roman or Barbarian auxiliary expected to be paid in (one per month).  Basically equal to 4 bushels of grain, the minimal cash required for a family to function for a month on non-barter goods.  At best, the economy was 1/2 monetized.  By the time of Atilla, everyone had gone back to barter until the Byzantines did temporarily achieve some stability.  Alaric and his Ostrogoths came to Rome first, by two generations.  Rome refused to pay up to their Auxiliaries.  The Goths worked for the Romans, and had fled to the Roman Empire to escape the Huns.  Atilla of course wanted it … because it was shiny.

Gold is weird.  It isn't very practical.  But rarity gives value.  I like my amber with several insects in it for the same reason.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: Monarchial America ... a different history in 3 versions
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2019, 02:25:52 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Gold is weird.  It isn't very practical.  But rarity gives value.  I like my amber with several insects in it for the same reason.


The coining gives it value.  One, because gold is real money, forever.  But because of government authority of it.  And because of numismatic art.  And because you can hold awesome history in your hand.  I have a silver denarius issued to 4th Legion, at the camp at Actium, by Mark Anthony/Cleopatra.  In emergency the army could act as its own mint.  Dual purpose military currency (we still issued some from WW II until Vietnam).  One side Antonian navy, the other side Antonian army.  Both failures.  And he had quite a few ships and legions, not just some.  People like Augustus say, it was because of wine and sexual depravity.  Un-Roman.  Think France 1940.
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Cavebear

Re: Monarchial America ... a different history in 3 versions
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2019, 02:37:20 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

The coining gives it value.  One, because gold is real money, forever.  But because of government authority of it.  And because of numismatic art.  And because you can hold awesome history in your hand.  I have a silver denarius issued to 4th Legion, at the camp at Actium, by Mark Anthony/Cleopatra.  In emergency the army could act as its own mint.  Dual purpose military currency (we still issued some from WW II until Vietnam).  One side Antonian navy, the other side Antonian army.  Both failures.  And he had quite a few ships and legions, not just some.  People like Augustus say, it was because of wine and sexual depravity.  Un-Roman.  Think France 1940.

Gold has little actual value other than rarity.  And that it doesn't rust.  I read about people who rush to gold when the economy slows down.  And I wonder why.  What are they going  to do?  Eat it?  If times get hard, I would rather have 50 pounds of potatos and bean seeds than a pound of gold.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: Monarchial America ... a different history in 3 versions
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2019, 02:45:20 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Gold has little actual value other than rarity.  And that it doesn't rust.  I read about people who rush to gold when the economy slows down.  And I wonder why.  What are they going  to do?  Eat it?  If times get hard, I would rather have 50 pounds of potatos and bean seeds than a pound of gold.

It is a philia.  Others have phobia.  Irrational.  Yes, food is more useful.  But it spoils rapidly.  My ancient Greek or Roman gold is like new.

All banking systems, including BitCoin, are indirectly based on this irrationality about gold and on government authority.  Without government, you have only barter.

Gold is never a speculation or investment.  Anyone who says so is lying.  Gold is like Ft Knox.  It is what underlies what you use as currency (it never has been practical for currency, even 2500 years ago).  The original gold currency (electrum before that) had a basic unit of less than 1/2 troy oz, divided into 96 parts.  The smallest unit is tiny, a rice grain.  Hence precious metal is also weighed in "grains".  And that goes back further to Babylon.  Shekel is 180 grains of dried barley in weight.  A mina (~pound) is 60 shekels.  A talent is 60 minas, about 66 of our pounds.

A talent of silver is $13.5K today.  A talent of gold is $11.9 Million today.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2019, 02:49:42 AM by Baruch »
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Cavebear

Re: Monarchial America ... a different history in 3 versions
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2019, 02:47:51 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
It is a philia.  Others have phobia.  Irrational.  Yes, food is more useful.  But it spoils rapidly.  My ancient Greek or Roman gold is like new.

All banking systems, including BitCoin, are indirectly based on this irrationality about gold and on government authority.  Without government, you have only barter.

Gold is never a speculation or investment.  Anyone who says so is lying.  Gold is like Ft Knox.  It is what underlies what you use as currency (it never has been practical for currency, even 2500 years ago).  The original gold currency (electrum before that) had a basic unit of less than 1/2 troy oz, divided into 96 parts.  The smallest unit is tiny, a rice grain.  Hence precious metal is also weighed in "grains".  And that goes back further to Babylon.  Shekel is 180 grains of dried barley in weight.  A mina (~pound) is 60 shekels.  A talent is 60 minas, about 66 of our pounds.

And that's why we rationally went off the gold standard years ago?
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: Monarchial America ... a different history in 3 versions
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2019, 03:01:08 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
And that's why we rationally went off the gold standard years ago?


Governments lie of course.  We have never been on a true gold standard, not the US, not the British Empire.  It was attempted in the European cultural zone from about 1815-1914.  Thanks to American and S African gold supplies.  Otherwise it has always been too rare, except at exceptional periods of history.

Originally, the US had private currency, gold or silver brought to the mint by commerce, converted into coin, and returned to commerce (for a small fee).  That is American.  This was undermined by Alexander Hamilton and the banks, immediately.  And for good reason.  Only fiat currency could be used, and eventually electronic money (credit was electronic long before BitCoin).  The size of the economy doesn't let us do anything else.  At Bretton-Woods, 1944-1971, it was attempted to keep international trade on a gold standard (the primary point of the 1815-1914 era).  Local trade was almost always done in copper, silver and commercial script.  But the global economy won't permit this.  Force fitting to an international trade gold standard is like a wasp corset.  Churchill attempted this in 1925 and contributed to an immediate recession.  A Chinese/Russian attempt to an international trade gold standard (they have been moving that way for about 10 years) will be very deflationary.  Disastrous for the entire planet.

With electronic fiat, it is all about who controls the magic government spreadsheet.  Politicians in Moscow, Beijing, Berlin, Tokyo, Paris and Washington DC know this.  They want it to be like Lord of the Rings.  One spreadsheet to control the others, and in the darkness bind them.  This is why the public should never ever trust politicians of any country.  But as people, we are helpless cannon fodder anyway.  Trying to protect yourself in conventional or survivalist terms makes you feel better.  But it won't work.  Peak human.
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Cavebear

Re: Monarchial America ... a different history in 3 versions
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2019, 02:48:39 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Yes, Attila also violated tourist visa in Rome Italy.  N Italy ravaged, then Rome/Pope bought him off, and he returned north from there.

Yeah, when Central Asia isn't your focus, Huns and Mongols can be hard to distinguish.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk