Reform about involuntary commitment and the like

[viocjit]

Hello , everybody !

I'd like to speak with you about involuntary commitment and the like (Someone forced to see a psychiatrist one time by week because of a judiciary decision , someone living outside of an asylum or outside another place to deprive someone of his liberty of movement forced to take medicines , someone forced to take part to a therapy etc...) where you live.
I'm a Frenchman living in France and I will tell you the situation in French Republic.

The majority of people don't know the legislation and regulation about involuntary commitment and the like specified in articles L3211-1 to L3251-6 and R3211-1 to R3225-1 of "code de la santé" (Public health code).
When I will make reference to "code de la santé publique" I'll use letters "CSP" to simplify.



In my country (France) when you are being involuntary committed you can contact the psychiatrist of your choice.
Your family can also contact the psychiatrist chosen by them to help you.
This right is guaranteed by the second paragraph of article L3211-1 of CSP but this right is often not respected if we believe testimonies that I read.

The article L3211-2 of CSP say someone who is in an asylum without being in involuntary commitment is being treated with his / her consenting to the commitment.
But it does exist non official involuntary commitment because someone of the medical team can threat the person to launch the procedure for an involuntary commitment if the patient refuse to stay.
If you are in an asylum and want to go. If you're facing to someone who threat you of an involuntary commitment if you want to go and stay because you fear this threat. You're de facto in a situation of involuntary commitment even if you're not de jure in this situation.
We haven't statistics about non official involuntary commitment even if this is a reality.

Accorded to article L3211-3 of CSP a person being involuntary committed have eight fundamental rights but I will speak only about six of these.
The third right mentioned in article L3211-3 of CSP is the right to contact the "Contrôleur général des lieux de privation de liberté" (Comptroller General of places of deprivation of liberty) but in real world you can be in a situation in which you can't exercise this right if no one give you pen and papers or if every members of the medical team refuse to write for you.
The fourth right is to chose the lawyer of the doctor of your choice but this right is often not respected.
The fifth right is to send and receive paper mails but this right is often violated.
The sixth right is to read the "réglement intérieur" (Internal rules) of the asylum and receive explanations about it but this right is often violated.
The seventh right is the right to vote in political election but how can you exercise this right if you're involuntary committed and not allowed to get out of the facility (Some patients have the right to get out but not all) and if there are not poll vote in the facility.
You can try a proxy vote but what can you do if you don't know someone of trust for a proxy vote ?
The eight right is to practice the religion or philosophical activities of your choice but I have some weak reports about violations of this right.
Patients aren't always informed of theirs rights even if medical team must to do so because it is specified in article L3211-3 of CSP

Accorded to article L3222-5-1 of CSP isolation and tools to avoid the patient move (For example a straitjacket) must to be used only to avoid the patient hurt him(her)self or another person in last resort. This kind of measures can be used for a patient who isn't dangerous for his / her life or others even if this is illegal.
The same article say there must have a register to note who is under this measure , the name of the psychiatrist who took the decision , date and hour of beginning and the end , the name of people who monitored the patient but there were cases in which there were no register even if this is a violation of law.
This article is often violated and it was renown officially by some organs of French Republic.



In theory only someone who is a threat for his / her life or / and others can be involuntary committed.
But in real world you can be involuntary committed because someone that you know or many people did conspirated against you.
There were some cases of abuses reknown by French justice (Very rare because victims of real conspiracies are often considered as paranoiac).
I know the case of a woman who can prove in a French court she was a victim of a conspiracy between a doctor (The doctor didn't examined her as the law ask) and her husband to commit her in an asylum.
You can be victim of a conspiracy for various reasons like some members of your family who want to be your curateur (curator) or tuteur (guardian) to take your money because it easier to put someone on curatelle (curatorship) or tutelle (guardianship) if he / she is in an asylum but what they don't know is there are high probabilities to see a professional appointed and not a family member.
Among the most common reasons for which people can be victims of a conspiracy is the person who want exclusive custody of the child(ren) because if we believe the other parent have mental issue it's easier to get exclusive custody and if the other parent explain the truth he / she will be considered as a paranoiac or someone who is denying his / her mental illness.

In France there are people who fled the country because they were forced to see a psychiatrist or / and forced to take medicines.
I tried to found data about these people but I did found only some cases even if there are probably hundred or thousand of people who fled France to escape to psychiatric system.
It does seem no French officials spoke publicly of these people who fled the country.

There are so many kind of violations that I can't write more because it would be long.

[Baruch]

This used to be common in the US.  But was discontinued from public health law, back in the 70s.  Because liberals decided that crazy people were an oppressed minority.  When the let the crazies out (residential control with drugs) there were two fatal stabbings the first year.

The other source of that law in the US is commitment of elderly relatives.  Recently had direct experience with that.  The law is grey.  Relatives are both damned for keeping the demented at home, or for getting a doctor to do some paperwork that the nursing home will legally accept.

[Mr.Obvious]

Is this a subject that hits close to home for you?
I'm not saying it is not interesting.

I've had to start up the process for legal guardianship for two clients so far.
Belgium, not France.

[Cavebear]

In a perfect world, criminals would be cured of their insanities and therefore be among the most trustable of people.  In a perfect world, criminals would get treatments for the things that caused them to act criminally.  We wouldn't have "prisons", we would have "penitentiaries" where people contemplated their past harms and were helped to understand the harm of illegal deeds and why they did them.

Wake me up when that happens...

[Unbeliever]

A perfect world wouldn't have any criminality in the first place, would it? So no penitentiaries would be needed.

[Baruch]

Is this a subject that hits close to home for you?
I'm not saying it is not interesting.

I've had to start up the process for legal guardianship for two clients so far.
Belgium, not France.

I hope there is clarity in EU law.  The ambiguity I had to deal with, meant getting in bed with an attorney while the medical and nursing care communities talk out of both sides of their mouth.  Scary shit, while as the family care giver you are in trauma, and your family member is suffering badly.

[Baruch]

In a perfect world, criminals would be cured of their insanities and therefore be among the most trustable of people.  In a perfect world, criminals would get treatments for the things that caused them to act criminally.  We wouldn't have "prisons", we would have "penitentiaries" where people contemplated their past harms and were helped to understand the harm of illegal deeds and why they did them.

Wake me up when that happens...

If you cured all the Democrats, they would no longer be autistic, and be Republicans.

[Baruch]

A perfect world wouldn't have any criminality in the first place, would it? So no penitentiaries would be needed.

People who want perfect worlds ... utopian nut cases ... Nazis and Stalinists.

May the world be saved from perfectionists.

[Baruch]

In a perfect world, criminals would be cured of their insanities and therefore be among the most trustable of people.  In a perfect world, criminals would get treatments for the things that caused them to act criminally.  We wouldn't have "prisons", we would have "penitentiaries" where people contemplated their past harms and were helped to understand the harm of illegal deeds and why they did them.

Wake me up when that happens...

This was tried in Philadelphia 200 years ago, the original Penitentiary.  It was a Quaker hell hole, that abused the prisoners with mental games.  Is that what you are hoping for as an atheist?  Quaker tyranny?



You seem to support Soviet prisons, who considered politics dissent as insanity.

[Cavebear]

A perfect world wouldn't have any criminality in the first place, would it? So no penitentiaries would be needed.

You are right about a perfect world.  I tried to get around that several times in my thoughts but couldn't.  Consider it modified to "an almost perfect world".

[Baruch]

You are right about a perfect world.  I tried to get around that several times in my thoughts but couldn't.  Consider it modified to "an almost perfect world".

Imperfect tyranny?

[Cavebear]

Imperfect tyranny?

All tyrannies are imperfect.  The original one dies and the descendants descend.

[viocjit]

Is this a subject that hits close to home for you?
I'm not saying it is not interesting.

I've had to start up the process for legal guardianship for two clients so far.
Belgium, not France.

This subject doesn't concern me directly but it does concern everybody in the same way judicial mistake in criminal matter concern everybody because all human being can be victim of a judicial mistake in criminal matter.
There are judicial mistakes in criminal matter but we forget the majority of judicial affair in the world are about civil matter.
In France involuntary commitment is a civil and administrative matter. In Western world you have probably more probabilities to be victim of psychiatric abuses or mistakes in this kind of judicial affair than being a victim of abuse or mistakes in criminal matters.

Are you a social worker working in Flanders ? I think we did already communicate in another board.

I hope there is clarity in EU law.  The ambiguity I had to deal with, meant getting in bed with an attorney while the medical and nursing care communities talk out of both sides of their mouth.  Scary shit, while as the family care giver you are in trauma, and your family member is suffering badly.

Psychiatric matters , guardianship matters , elderly matters are the responsibilities of each state members of European Union (EU).
The legislation and regulation on these matters depend of each states and this is problematic because it does create inequalities between inhabitants of EU.

For example in Belgium the judge charged to control the measures of involuntary commitment is a judge of the peace (Dutch : vrederechter , French : juge de paix , German : Friedensrichter) working in a tribunal called justice of the peace (Dutch : vredegerecht , French : justice de paix , German : Friedensgericht) and one of its others functions is guardianship for adults.
But in France the judge charged to control the measures of involuntary commitment is a juge des libertés et de la détention (Judge of liberties and detention) working in a tribunal de grande instance (Can be translated as tribunal of grand instance , tribunal of great instance , high court , regional court , First instance court etc...) and the judge charged of guardianship for adults is a juge des tutelles (Judge of guardianship) working for a tribunal d'instance (Can be translated as instance tribunal) that is a court below tribunal de grande instance.

It is an inequality between those in Belgium and those in France because those depending of Belgian jurisdictions must to face to one category of judge for involuntary commitment and adult guardianship matters when those depending of French jurisdictions must to face to one category of judge for involuntary commitment and another one for adult guardianship matters.
That means someone depending of a Belgian jurisdiction have less probabilities than someone in France to terminate his / her guardianship if the judge want to continue the measure of involuntary commitment and vice-versa because in French Republic these two matters don't depend of the same judge.



There are others matters that depend of members states of EU and not EU like age of consent for sexual activities and so many others things that I can cite all concerned matters.
For example in France the age of consent is 15 and 16 in Belgium.
Imagine a Frenchman or a Frenchwoman aged of 21 years who don't know Belgian law fucking his / her French sexual partner aged of 15 years in a hotel in Belgium because they traveled there to pass theirs holidays with the authorization of parents of the underage person.
In France this relation is legal if it's consensual and if the person who reached civil majority haven't a relation of authority (Brother , Doctor , Teacher etc...) with the person aged of 15 years old and if the underage person doesn't prostitute him(her)self to the person who reached civil majority.
But in Belgium sexual activities with a person under 16 years old is illegal in the circumstances of our fictive story and if the person of our fictive story is denounced by someone working in the hotel or another person. If the police surprise him / her in the hotel room he's / she's facing theoretically an imprisonment term between five years and ten years accorded to article 372 of Belgian penal code (Dutch : Strafwetboek , French : Code pénal , German : No translation in German even if German is one of three official languages of Kingdom of Belgium) that is the criminal code of Belgium.

[Baruch]

Yep.  American solution ... hire a better lawyer than the government guy.

[josephpalazzo]

Yep.  American solution ... hire a better lawyer than the government guy.

Best lawyers are in Israel.