Author Topic: Legalisation of illegal drugs  (Read 334 times)

Legalisation of illegal drugs
« on: August 05, 2019, 11:43:34 AM »
Hello everybody ! I want to debate with you about legalization of illegal drugs.
I think it's necessary to speak about the possibility to decrease , increase don't modify theoretical sentences for taking and possession of cannabis and others drugs.
Of course you can also be for the legalization (This is my opinion).

My proposition is to speak together about what do you want for the statute of drugs where you live. (I'm in France).
I'd like to know if you want to increase theoretical sentence for cannabis possession and others drugs , decrease theoretical sentence for cannabis possession and others drugs or don't modify theoretical sentence if you're against the legalization of its possession.

If we legalize no legal drugs. We must to think about the maximum quantity someone can own if we fix legal limit , who will have the right to produce these if the production is legal , sentences for violation of regulations etc...

Are you in favor of the legalization of illegal drug sell ? (I'm in favor of it but we must to decide if selling must to be the responsibility of a state monopoly , equally shared between a state company and private companies , only in the hand of privates companies , another way to resolve this matter)

I think we must to debate about the legalization of cannabis because it is the most common in the world but we must not forget the debate for others no legal drugs.
Unhappily this debate about individual liberties , public health and judicial system doesn't seem to interest the majority of politicians in my country (France) and politicians in others countries.



In French Republic. Someone taking illegal drugs or / and own illegal drugs is facing an imprisonment term not exceeding 1 year (In practice few people go in jail for that) and a fine not exceeding 3750 euros (Approximately a bit more than 3 month of minimum wage under French law).
Those are the "Peines principales" (Main sentence) but there are also a "Peine complémentaire" (Additional sentence) that can be theoretically enforced that is "Stage de sensibilisation aux dangers de l'usage de produits stupéfiants" (Awareness course on the dangers of the use of narcotics). The additional sentence applied to this "Délit" (Misdemeanor) will vanish in Tuesday, 24th , March 2020 because of an amendment to article L3421-1 of "Code de santé publique" (Public health code) that is the legal text prohibiting possession and use of narcotics.

If you're 18 Yo or over and wasn't committing any other misdemeanor for which "Amende forfaitaire" (Inclusive fine) doesn' apply.
You can pay an inclusive fine with an amount of 200 euros (A bit less than one week of minimum wage under French law) to the member of police force who detected you or in the next two weeks to avoid to be prosecuted and therefore face jail and a fine.
If you give 200 euros to the member of police force or in the next two weeks it will cost you 150 euros (A bit less than one week of minimum wage under French law) instead of 200 euros.
You will also pay 150 euros instead of 200 euros if you pay not more than two weeks after receiving the paper asking you to pay.
If you pay after the delay of two weeks and before the expiration of a delay of 45 days after the perpetration of the misdeameanor or 45 days after receiving the paper asking you to pay.. You'll have to pay 200 euros.
If you pay after the delay of 45 days you will have to pay 400 euros (A bit less than two week of minimum wage under French law) .

If the perpetrator is a civil servant , employee of a private company doing a mission of public service delegated to this company by French authorities or someone working in a transport company who is taking narcotics during his / her work.
The perpetrator is facing an imprisonment term not exceeding 5 years and a fine not exceeding 75 000 euros (Approximately 6 years of minimum wage under French law).
In this situation you can't pay to avoid prosecution.
It does seem normal to me to prosecute cases of drug use at certain workplaces because you can be a danger for others.
But I don't think it's normal to prosecute cases of drug use if you're not a threat for the lives of others people.
Maximum theoretical sentences for drug use and possession are rarely enforced in practice.



In France there are people who don't take drugs for recreative use but therapeutic use even if this is illegal.
These people are facing a sentence even if they do it in order to survive.
There are a project to legalise cannabis for a therapeutical use but we move slowly.



If you understand French and are interest about maximum theoretical sentence (Rarely enforced in practice) for drug trafficking in France I advise to read articles 222-34 to 222-51 of "Code pénal" (Penal code that is the French criminal code).

I think we must to repeal the theoretical jail sentence for drug use and possession and let the fine if we want to continue to illegalise it.
But we can go more far and repeal this misdemeanor to become a "Contravention" (Petty offense).
You are facing a fine less than 3000 euros or equal to this sum for a petty offense.
There are fifth categories of petty offenses defined in article 131-13 of our penal code. A second classe (Not more than 150 euros) , third class (Not more than 450 euros) or fourth class (Not more than 750 euros that represent about a little less than 3 weeks of minimum wage under French law) seem sufficient to me but for me the better is to legalize drug use and possession even if we can't encourage drug use because it is not good for human health.
We can legalize the sell of drugs but we are far of that and if we legalize drug use and possession and don't amend legislation about drug trafficking it would be already a big step.

We can decrease theoretical sentences for drug trafficking or legalise some aspects of it but we must to decide in which contexts.

Do you know someone in France producing drugs for its personal consumption is facing a maximum theoretical sentence (I don't know any case in which it was applied) of an imprisonment term not exceeding 20 years with a parole term not exceeding 13 years and a fine not exceeding 7,500,000 euros because of article 222-35 of code pénal ? (In France this is the maximum amount for a fine and it does represent a little more than 568 years of minimum wage under French law).
That means someone convicted to 20 years of jail must wait 13 years before a potential release.

Do you know someone in France who is the head of a network of narcotics producers for personal consumption of members of the network is facing a maximum theoretical sentence (I don't know any case in which it was applied) of life imprisonment with a parole of 22 years and a fine not exceeding 7,500,000 euros because of article 222-34 of code pénal ?
That means someone convicted to life imprisonment of jail must wait 22 years before a potential release.
The others members of the network are facing a maximum theoretical sentence (I don't know any case in which it was applied) of an imprisonment term not exceeding 30 years with a parole not exceeding 20 years because of article 222-35 of code pénal.
That means someone convicted to 30 years of jail must wait 20 years before a potential release.

French law doesn't make any difference between those who produce narcotics for personal consumption , selling or giving and this is problematic.
I think the law must to be amended to make the difference.
I think the theoretical sentences are excessive because someone who have relationship with a foreign power to undermine fundamental interest of French nation is facing an imprisonment term not exceeding 10 years and a fine not exceeding 150 000 euros (A bit more than 11 years of minimum wage under French law) accorded to article 411-5 of code pénal.
Is it normal to risk more jail time than a spy who is doing harm to the state because we produce drugs for ourself and our friends.
It should be the reverse if we were logic.
If you understand French I advise you to read articles 411-6 to 411-8 of code pénal and you will read than a spy take less risk than drug producers.
It doesn't seem logic to me to punish harder drugs producers than spies.

French prisons are overcrowded. About one third of prisoners are jailed for things related to drugs. It would be worse if maximum sentences were applied.

Offline Cavebear

Re: Legalisation of illegal drugs
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2019, 11:57:32 AM »
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Hello everybody ! I want to debate with you about legalization of illegal drugs.
I think it's necessary to speak about the possibility to decrease , increase don't modify theoretical sentences for taking and possession of cannabis and others drugs.
Of course you can also be for the legalization (This is my opinion).
I reduced your quote for brevity.  I agree with decriminalizing (blew my mind trying to spell THAT) some drugs.  Marijuana and mild speed come easily to mind.  I used both in younger days without problems and would today if it was legal.  I never knew anyone who had an addiction to either (note I say "mild speed").  Other drugs are too problematic.

On the other hand, I would like to see tobacco illegal (OK, smoke it after 100).  Grow all you want for yourself, even give it away, but don't sell it in every 7-11 store.

I never smoked cigs before college.  But to hold down grass, I practiced on a pack of cigs.  I left the grass after college, but smoke to this day.  Grass was a "gateway drug" all right, but only to cigs...

BTW, the MJ sellers should have gone to the tobacco companies and pitched it as mild relief to be sold like cigs by the pack.  Cheap and premium by ads..
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: Legalisation of illegal drugs
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2019, 07:18:04 PM »
A pragmatist.  Decriminalize tobacco, alcohol and MJ ... because they are too popular to be banned easily.
𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎌𐎀𐎍𐎎𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀𐎟𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎁𐎀𐎍𐎉𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: Legalisation of illegal drugs
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2019, 07:25:09 PM »
America tried banning alcohol decades ago, and all that did was give criminals another way to make lots of money. That's all the drug was has ever done, as well.
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Offline Baruch

Re: Legalisation of illegal drugs
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2019, 07:26:38 PM »
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America tried banning alcohol decades ago, and all that did was give criminals another way to make lots of money. That's all the drug was has ever done, as well.

True for all popular drugs.  Other drugs might be practical to ban.  Otherwise, go full on drug culture, until the whole country dies of overdose.  I won't miss it.

Natural father died from drugs.  Adopted father died by suicide from drugs.  Adopted mother attempted suicide from drugs.  I take this issue personally.  I avoid drugs as much as possible.
𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎌𐎀𐎍𐎎𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀𐎟𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎁𐎀𐎍𐎉𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: Legalisation of illegal drugs
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2019, 07:28:57 PM »
People will do drugs whether they're legal or illegal. I did. I smoked pot and did other drugs because the law could not stop me from doing them. Everything is legal, except getting caught. Only getting caught gets someone locked up in jail.
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"Christians, like slaves and soldiers, ask no questions."  Jerry Falwell
"Who says lying doesn't get you anywhere? Look at the success of Christianity!"  C. Spellman
"There is a sucker born-again every minute."  C. Spellman

Offline Shiranu

Re: Legalisation of illegal drugs
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2019, 07:35:11 PM »
I would like to see the majority of drugs legalized, and the rest of them at least decriminalized.

Top of the list for legalization for me are cannabis (obviously), MDMA, acid, mushrooms, cocaine and DMT. I think, in moderation, all of these have amazing potential of helping people view the world in a more healthy and clear way... and in the case of acid, mushrooms, DMT and Molly they have been clinically shown to have positive effects for people with mental trauma or social anxieties and disorders.

The only drugs I don't really think need to be decriminalized or legalized are things like PCP, Bath Salts, krokodil... stuff that causes the user to become excessively violent (even in small doses) and have severe physical and mental damage implications (again, even in small doses). I realise alcohol fits both those criteria, but not to the same extent and 99% of the time it is due to over-indulgence rather than the nature of alcohol.

Edit - I am also biased in that I have done most of the legalization ones (also tried ketamine and painkillers, but I think those need to fall into the decriminalized rather than legalized quality due to their addictive nature)... so take my opinion as you will. It is definitely self-serving, regardless of how much I would want to present it as being practical and ethical (though I think it's that as well).
« Last Edit: August 05, 2019, 07:38:15 PM by Shiranu »
Quod est inferius, est sicut quod est superius.
Et quod est superius, est sicut quod est inferius.

Offline Baruch

Re: Legalisation of illegal drugs
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2019, 07:42:20 PM »
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People will do drugs whether they're legal or illegal. I did. I smoked pot and did other drugs because the law could not stop me from doing them. Everything is legal, except getting caught. Only getting caught gets someone locked up in jail.

Yes, we are all sociopaths.  But not all of us are psychedelic fueled sociopaths.  I agree, given the worthless makeup of the human species, there is noting moral, ethical or legal.  Just guns.
𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎌𐎀𐎍𐎎𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀𐎟𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎁𐎀𐎍𐎉𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: Legalisation of illegal drugs
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2019, 09:42:52 PM »
Decriminalize all drugs.  How is the USA doing with the War On Drugs?  Making more money for the gangs and cartels.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Baruch

Re: Legalisation of illegal drugs
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2019, 10:32:20 PM »
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Decriminalize all drugs.  How is the USA doing with the War On Drugs?  Making more money for the gangs and cartels.

Possible.  Unlikely.  The purpose of government is to enable me (authority) to do what I want and to prevent you (pleb) from doing what you want.  Thus vendetta is avoided.
𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎌𐎀𐎍𐎎𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀𐎟𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎁𐎀𐎍𐎉𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Hydra009

Re: Legalisation of illegal drugs
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2019, 11:40:49 PM »
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I would like to see the majority of drugs legalized, and the rest of them at least decriminalized.
Same.  And addiction treated as a medical problem more than a penal one (i.e. prioritize rehabilitation over incarceration)

Quote
Top of the list for legalization for me are cannabis (obviously), MDMA, acid, mushrooms, cocaine and DMT.
I dunno, I'm leaning on keeping cocaine illegal.  I favor a legalization policy that closely tracks with physical harm/dependence (currently, we're all over the place: heroin and LSD in schedule 1, cocaine and ritalin in schedule 2, etc).  Cocaine is pretty high up there in terms of dependence and physical harm.

Quote
It is definitely self-serving, regardless of how much I would want to present it as being practical and ethical (though I think it's that as well).
Mine absolutely is not self-serving.  I have not tried nor plan on trying anything more potent than caffeine.  I am not a part of this equation. This is purely from a perspective of maximizing human happiness/freedom while simultaneously seeking to curb excessively harmful drug use (basically, I'm drawing heavily from harm principle ethics)
« Last Edit: August 05, 2019, 11:48:26 PM by Hydra009 »

Offline drunkenshoe

Re: Legalisation of illegal drugs
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2019, 06:49:09 AM »
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Decriminalize all drugs.  How is the USA doing with the War On Drugs?  Making more money for the gangs and cartels.

Probably a lot of that is going to Europe through the peninsula I live in. Think about the peninsula I live in. Who knows who gets that huuuge amount of money and does what with it. *Shivers. 
'the wise man does not seek enlightenment, he waits for it. so while ı was waiting, it occurred to me that seeking perplexity might be more fun.’ - lu-tze

Re: Legalisation of illegal drugs
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2019, 09:11:40 AM »
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Probably a lot of that is going to Europe through the peninsula I live in. Think about the peninsula I live in. Who knows who gets that huuuge amount of money and does what with it. *Shivers.
Drugs seem to be everywhere (and probably everywhen) and gangs and cartels are making the money.  And, ironically, the forces created to combat those gangs and cartels don't really want to end that trafficking, for then they would be out of work. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: Legalisation of illegal drugs
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2019, 02:09:13 PM »
It isn't just the gangs and cartels who are making that money, but the private prison industry as well.
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"Christians, like slaves and soldiers, ask no questions."  Jerry Falwell
"Who says lying doesn't get you anywhere? Look at the success of Christianity!"  C. Spellman
"There is a sucker born-again every minute."  C. Spellman

Re: Legalisation of illegal drugs
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2019, 05:10:15 PM »
I didn't thought receive so many replies there. Thanks for yours replies and thanks to those who will answer.

 

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