The Logic of Atheists vs. Theist Arguments

[SGOS]

I have seen God, but first I believed.

If I was convinced I saw God, I would believe, but it doesn't work when I go backwards, because no matter how much I believe, I can never equate belief with knowledge.  Of course, as Cavebear pointed out, maybe you're not sincere enough in your belief.  Although he winked when he said that, and for good reason, since I've recognized that theist apology as bullshit since I was ten.

[Baruch]

Yeah, any more than we have reason to believe in ghosts, or goblins or the Lock Ness Monster, or Santa Claus. And those things may actually have more evidence for their existence than any God does, though it, too, is anecdotal.

I think we could expect there to be evidence of such a God as the Abrahamic believers propose. And it is merely a proposition, just one of many possible propositions that could be espoused. But if there very well should be evidence and we still see none at all after all our searching for it, then we can assume the proposition is incorrect, or at least not worth further consideration.


I'm more curious about how the non-existence of God affects us, as humans abandoned, alone in a universe indifferent to human happiness. How do we cope when we know that it is only us who are responsible for our future wellbeing?

The God question has been settled, to my satisfaction, but the practical questions of the survival of humanity and the biosphere that sustains us are just beginning to come into the social consciousness. It may be too late, but maybe not. But there's no God to save the world, no superheroes, either, to save the world for us, no aliens are going to show up to stop us from killing the world. It's up to us, but if we don't care enough, or if we keep expecting some benevolent "other" to solve the problems we've made, then we're doomed to whatever fate awaits us.

Humanity is not meant to survive.  No species is.  Change comes and can't be stopped.  Like that big meteor that nearly missed us last week.

[Unbeliever]

Well, there is likely no deity, (it would seem the evidence would actually be hard to hide).  But that doesn't mean there is no other intelligent life "out there".  Given that the basic building blocks seem rather common and that there are a lot of hospitable zone planets, I rather expect that the universe is filled with pond scum.  Given that a lot of questions are about "life", that seems an easy one.

Its the complexity ladder that gets tricky.  Let's say there is pond scum on most planets or moons capable of supporting it.  What next?  Our own history is a decent example.  Of course, there could be alternate paths.  Maybe plants and animals don't separate.  Mobile plantanimals?  OMG, Triffids!

But perhaps the division is logically forced by evolution.  Maybe its the animals like corals that stay in one spot and the plants that get hungry.  OMG, Triffids!

But maybe the animals win and eat plants.  Like here.  OMG, no triffids.

I try to stay aware of the Sagan logic about Venus.  We can't see a thing.  It's covered with clouds.  What are clouds?  Water.  If there is that much water, there must be swamps!  What grows in swamps (no, not triffids) ferns.  What eats ferns" ? Dinosaurs!  So we see nothing and conclude "dinosaurs". 

I loved Carl Sagan!

Same logic applies to deities...

Yes, though I don't have a belief that there are ETs out there, I think it's more a matter of what we accept as a default position on their existence/non-existence. I use the default "no aliens" while many use the default "aliens." All of the aliens humans have imagined have been just that - imagined. Mere projections of our desires and fears, like gods. But the concept of alien intelligence doesn't seem to have any logical inconsistencies, so I concede that I could be wrong about the existence of aliens. But since the concept of God is filled to the rim with contradictions, I conclude that God does not exist. Of course, I could still be wrong and simply have yet encountered an argument that allows God a logical possibility of existing, an argument that clears up all of the seeming contradictions in the idea of God. But the fact is, I've yet to encounter that argument, so I'll continue with my working hypothesis that there is no God.

[Baruch]

Of what, exactly, is it that we atheists are "willfully blind" to? And if we're not conscious of it, whatever it is, then it's not "willful," now, is it?

The will isn't necessarily conscious, it is a separate mental facility.  But the phrase is unfortunately confusing.  It sounds like you poke your own eyes out.  Unless I have a will to get up in the morning, I won't.  That is independent of consciousness, in that I can be conscious and still not choose to get up.  And per sleep walking, I can be unconscious and still have the will to get up.

But atheists are all powerful wizards.  In their own minds.

[Unbeliever]

I have seen God, but first I believed.

I started out by believing God for a newer car than the one I was driving. I started out believing God for a nicer apartment than I had. Then I moved up.

Religion can be lucrative.


:-P

[Baruch]

If I was convinced I saw God, I would believe, but it doesn't work when I go backwards, because no matter how much I believe, I can never equate belief with knowledge.  Of course, as Cavebear pointed out, maybe you're not sincere enough in your belief.  Although he winked when he said that, and for good reason, since I've recognized that theist apology as bullshit since I was ten.

If you have never seen G-d, and most have not, you won't know what to expect.  I didn't.  It isn't even paranormal.  It is like suddenly moving from prose to poetry.

[Unbeliever]

Like that big meteor that nearly missed us last week.

Good thing it only "nearly" missed us, or we'd be in trouble!


:-P

[Baruch]

Now see, AA, Baruch knows it's just a word game.

Logographic anarchists.  All letters are bull shit.  Prove me wrong?  Yes, semantics is real.

[Cavebear]

Humanity is not meant to survive.  No species is.  Change comes and can't be stopped.  Like that big meteor that nearly missed us last week.

"Nearly missed us" would mean it hit us.

[Baruch]

Good thing it only "nearly" missed us, or we'd be in trouble!


:-P

Nature happens.  I wouldn't want it to hit, but I would accept it if it did.  Same as the smaller one that hit Russia.  Both theists and atheists don't accept a reality other than the one they like.

[Baruch]

Where did THAT come from?

As a demi-god, my every fart is a revelation.

[Baruch]

Now see, AA, Baruch knows it's just a word game.

I am not your average bear, am I Boo Boo? (Yogi as Jesus).

[Baruch]

Poor Baruch.  One foot on the pier and the other on the dock.  And the boat is moving away...

Actually, I saw that happen.  I told my friend "don't do that", but did he listen?  No...  Sometimes I feel like Cassandra.

I did that at the Montgomery Ward warehouse when I was doing odd jobs.  They told us, when unloading a semi into the warehouse, watch your step, don't put your foot between the dock and the back of the truck (didn't have a moving ramp).  Of course it didn't take me long to do that with "one" of my legs.  I was able to regain my position but with a strain to my tendon.

[Baruch]

Yes, though I don't have a belief that there are ETs out there, I think it's more a matter of what we accept as a default position on their existence/non-existence. I use the default "no aliens" while many use the default "aliens." All of the aliens humans have imagined have been just that - imagined. Mere projections of our desires and fears, like gods. But the concept of alien intelligence doesn't seem to have any logical inconsistencies, so I concede that I could be wrong about the existence of aliens. But since the concept of God is filled to the rim with contradictions, I conclude that God does not exist. Of course, I could still be wrong and simply have yet encountered an argument that allows God a logical possibility of existing, an argument that clears up all of the seeming contradictions in the idea of God. But the fact is, I've yet to encounter that argument, so I'll continue with my working hypothesis that there is no God.

G-d isn't an ET.  ETs aren't metaphysical, unless they are 60s hippies from Berkeley on 'shrooms.

[Baruch]

Religion can be lucrative.


:-P

Socialists want to financially fail at everything (because autism) and blame it o something else.