Author Topic: The Logic of Atheists vs. Theist Arguments  (Read 2779 times)

Re: The Logic of Atheists vs. Theist Arguments
« Reply #30 on: August 01, 2019, 01:57:35 PM »
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It's not that I reject the idea of there being any god, I just don't see any reason to believe there is one.

Yeah, any more than we have reason to believe in ghosts, or goblins or the Lock Ness Monster, or Santa Claus. And those things may actually have more evidence for their existence than any God does, though it, too, is anecdotal.


Quote
I also don't see how this world, given the assumption that it does have a deity, would be different if there were no such god.
Most times when someone proposes a certain god with certain properties, however, they propose an accompanying  world we could come to expect that is different from this one, which makes their variety of a deity seem all the more unlikely.
I think we could expect there to be evidence of such a God as the Abrahamic believers propose. And it is merely a proposition, just one of many possible propositions that could be espoused. But if there very well should be evidence and we still see none at all after all our searching for it, then we can assume the proposition is incorrect, or at least not worth further consideration.


I'm more curious about how the non-existence of God affects us, as humans abandoned, alone in a universe indifferent to human happiness. How do we cope when we know that it is only us who are responsible for our future wellbeing?

The God question has been settled, to my satisfaction, but the practical questions of the survival of humanity and the biosphere that sustains us are just beginning to come into the social consciousness. It may be too late, but maybe not. But there's no God to save the world, no superheroes, either, to save the world for us, no aliens are going to show up to stop us from killing the world. It's up to us, but if we don't care enough, or if we keep expecting some benevolent "other" to solve the problems we've made, then we're doomed to whatever fate awaits us.



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"An experiment is a question which science poses to Nature, and a measurement is the recording of Nature's answer."
Max Planck, Scientific Autobiography and Other Papers (1949)

Re: The Logic of Atheists vs. Theist Arguments
« Reply #31 on: August 01, 2019, 02:01:01 PM »
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This is the nature of God--He manifests as that which He is believed to be.  If you believe there is no God, you see no God.

Kind of a cosmic placebo, huh?
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"An experiment is a question which science poses to Nature, and a measurement is the recording of Nature's answer."
Max Planck, Scientific Autobiography and Other Papers (1949)

Re: The Logic of Atheists vs. Theist Arguments
« Reply #32 on: August 01, 2019, 02:02:20 PM »
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Logical solution: transcendence.  God transcends time.  All moments are simultaneously before Him.  Therefore he can go back in time and do something he did not do in the exact same moment.  He can also travel into the future and not do something He knows He will do later. Additionally He inhabits all probable universes.  Thus what He did in one probability He may choose not to do in another probability, enabling Him to both do and not do anything, anytime, while knowing it.  God is not bound by sequential time or any of its constraints; therefore, God is both Omniscient and Free.

You do know that all this is just a word game, don't you?
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"An experiment is a question which science poses to Nature, and a measurement is the recording of Nature's answer."
Max Planck, Scientific Autobiography and Other Papers (1949)

Re: The Logic of Atheists vs. Theist Arguments
« Reply #33 on: August 01, 2019, 02:05:00 PM »
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No, I am not assuming you are theistic at all.  And your binary logic with one value being zero (not F) ... a difference in semantics ... I recognize but don't accept.  Aren't you just another faux Vulcan?

Now see, AA, Baruch knows it's just a word game.
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"An experiment is a question which science poses to Nature, and a measurement is the recording of Nature's answer."
Max Planck, Scientific Autobiography and Other Papers (1949)

Re: The Logic of Atheists vs. Theist Arguments
« Reply #34 on: August 01, 2019, 02:11:43 PM »
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Yes, atheists are willfully blind but not necessarily consciously so.

Of what, exactly, is it that we atheists are "willfully blind" to? And if we're not conscious of it, whatever it is, then it's not "willful," now, is it?
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 02:21:14 PM by Unbeliever »
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"An experiment is a question which science poses to Nature, and a measurement is the recording of Nature's answer."
Max Planck, Scientific Autobiography and Other Papers (1949)

Re: The Logic of Atheists vs. Theist Arguments
« Reply #35 on: August 01, 2019, 02:13:39 PM »
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A virgin cannot relate to a whore!

Oh, no! No virgin whores!? How will I cope?

:-P
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"An experiment is a question which science poses to Nature, and a measurement is the recording of Nature's answer."
Max Planck, Scientific Autobiography and Other Papers (1949)

Re: The Logic of Atheists vs. Theist Arguments
« Reply #36 on: August 01, 2019, 02:16:13 PM »
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Belief is not a passive absorption of information, but an engagement of all our faculties in a constructive pursuit.

So, more of an art than a science, huh?
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"An experiment is a question which science poses to Nature, and a measurement is the recording of Nature's answer."
Max Planck, Scientific Autobiography and Other Papers (1949)

Re: The Logic of Atheists vs. Theist Arguments
« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2019, 02:19:23 PM »
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I was a sincere believer for decades. I never saw god.

I never saw God either, but I'd love to see Penn&Teller saw God on stage! Saw that sucker right in two! I'd never figure out how they did it, either.
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"An experiment is a question which science poses to Nature, and a measurement is the recording of Nature's answer."
Max Planck, Scientific Autobiography and Other Papers (1949)

Offline Cavebear

Re: The Logic of Atheists vs. Theist Arguments
« Reply #38 on: August 01, 2019, 02:22:15 PM »
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I'm more curious about how the non-existence of God affects us, as humans abandoned, alone in a universe indifferent to human happiness. How do we cope when we know that it is only us who are responsible for our future wellbeing?

The God question has been settled, to my satisfaction, but the practical questions of the survival of humanity and the biosphere that sustains us are just beginning to come into the social consciousness. It may be too late, but maybe not. But there's no God to save the world, no superheroes, either, to save the world for us, no aliens are going to show up to stop us from killing the world. It's up to us, but if we don't care enough, or if we keep expecting some benevolent "other" to solve the problems we've made, then we're doomed to whatever fate awaits us.

Well, there is likely no deity, (it would seem the evidence would actually be hard to hide).  But that doesn't mean there is no other intelligent life "out there".  Given that the basic building blocks seem rather common and that there are a lot of hospitable zone planets, I rather expect that the universe is filled with pond scum.  Given that a lot of questions are about "life", that seems an easy one.

Its the complexity ladder that gets tricky.  Let's say there is pond scum on most planets or moons capable of supporting it.  What next?  Our own history is a decent example.  Of course, there could be alternate paths.  Maybe plants and animals don't separate.  Mobile plantanimals?  OMG, Triffids!

But perhaps the division is logically forced by evolution.  Maybe its the animals like corals that stay in one spot and the plants that get hungry.  OMG, Triffids!

But maybe the animals win and eat plants.  Like here.  OMG, no triffids.

I try to stay aware of the Sagan logic about Venus.  We can't see a thing.  It's covered with clouds.  What are clouds?  Water.  If there is that much water, there must be swamps!  What grows in swamps (no, not triffids) ferns.  What eats ferns" ? Dinosaurs!  So we see nothing and conclude "dinosaurs". 

I loved Carl Sagan!

Same logic applies to deities...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Cavebear

Re: The Logic of Atheists vs. Theist Arguments
« Reply #39 on: August 01, 2019, 02:25:00 PM »
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A virgin cannot relate to a whore! 
Where did THAT come from?
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Cavebear

Re: The Logic of Atheists vs. Theist Arguments
« Reply #40 on: August 01, 2019, 02:27:47 PM »
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Oh, no! No virgin whores!? How will I cope?

:-P

Wait, isn't that from the (not to be named holy book of the people who would kill squiilions to dispatch an unbeliever) Koran?
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: The Logic of Atheists vs. Theist Arguments
« Reply #41 on: August 01, 2019, 02:28:19 PM »
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I have seen God, but first I believed.

Sent from my moto e5 play using Tapatalk

So have I.  As a mystic (kabbalist) I see G-d everywhere, all the time.  And G-d is no respecter of human religions.
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Cavebear

Re: The Logic of Atheists vs. Theist Arguments
« Reply #42 on: August 01, 2019, 02:31:45 PM »
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So have I.  As a mystic (kabbalist) I see G-d everywhere, all the time.  And G-d is no respecter of human religions.

Poor Baruch.  One foot on the pier and the other on the dock.  And the boat is moving away...

Actually, I saw that happen.  I told my friend "don't do that", but did he listen?  No...  Sometimes I feel like Cassandra.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: The Logic of Atheists vs. Theist Arguments
« Reply #43 on: August 01, 2019, 02:34:13 PM »
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I have believed, but I have never seen. Eventually, I had to realize that my belief was contradictory to my experiences. I doubt you have seen God, but you have falsely attributed some event to his presence, as theists often do.

You did those things your community was all about.  Nothing wrong with that.  You learned what you could from them and moved on.  Nothing wrong with that.  People go thru many lives (per Hinduism/Buddhism) without seeing G-d.  Anyone will see G-d when they are good and ready, G-d doesn't force this.

This doesn't work out so well for non-reincarnation religions.  I don't believe in conventional Hell, so a damp squib rather than raging volcano.  I attribute all human things to G-d.  I carefully separate, as a practicality, the human from the natural world.  Most people in history have never done this.  They attribute lightning to Zeus.  This was made fun of even in Socrates' time.
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Baruch

Re: The Logic of Atheists vs. Theist Arguments
« Reply #44 on: August 01, 2019, 02:36:35 PM »
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Kind of a cosmic placebo, huh?

Don't knock placebos.  Your vision of intervention medicine is a disaster.  You have to help the mind heal itself, help the body heal itself.  You don't run ruffshod over the body or the mind, unless you practice medicine at "One Flew Over A Cockoo's Nest".
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

 

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