Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?

[Cavebear]

What?  You keep projecting from who knows what.  Stop it, you hippie.

Are Black people illegitimate ... you mean, they come from broken families, thanks to LBJ welfare mess?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_family_structure

Been increasing for all American children since the 60s.  Worse for African-Americans and Native Americans.  Yes, LBJ war and welfare was devastating for African-American families.  The problem with Native American families is older and more bi-partisan.

Don't care if you think that college students are unfit for military duty.  It is a fact, in the Vietnam period, that non-college students or unemployed young men were preferred.  Military is class based.  College graduates (I knew some) were inducted as officers, not as enlisted.  The smart college students insisted on staying in the lower ranks.  2nd Lt all went straight to Vietnam.  Bullet catchers.

You said "bastard".  I chose to take it literally.  LOL!

[Cavebear]

You are correct.  I was not viewed as teenage cannon-fodder.  I was young adult cannon fodder.  I was lied to by the first agent I was interviewed by--Area Studies was training for the Phoenix Program.  While in Casual Company (what they called the group waiting for schools to open up) I was used to take students in various stages of their classes from one training exercise to another.  I learned what Area Studies was from that activity.  Torture techniques was one of the classes taught.  And how to withstand torture was another.  That is why I jumped into Counterintelligence when given the chance.  And make no mistake--any branch of the service could use their members in any fashion they deemed necessary.  That has always been the case and always will be.

Yeah, and I don't blame you at all.  One of the things I understood about military service at the time (being a student of military history has consequences) was that torture and anti-torture training is routine and I am a wimp.  My sense of even minor pain is immense.  I nearly faint at a paper cut.  I'm not proud of that, but I do recognize it.

[Baruch]

You said "bastard".  I chose to take it literally.  LOL!

In modern parlance ... "alternative parentage".  Go be politically correct, you rapist of English language!

[Baruch]

I didn't say 18 year's olds were stupid.  I said they were not mature adults.  There is a difference.  And I didn't say they can't fight.  But looking back, I don't think 18 year olds are completely adults.

Snore ... say a lot of words, take them all back.

[Baruch]

Yeah, and I don't blame you at all.  One of the things I understood about military service at the time (being a student of military history has consequences) was that torture and anti-torture training is routine and I am a wimp.  My sense of even minor pain is immense.  I nearly faint at a paper cut.  I'm not proud of that, but I do recognize it.

I wouldn't volunteer for that duty either.  Unless it is viciously trolling Joe during my first two years here.  Not proud of that either.

[Mike Cl]

Yeah, and I don't blame you at all.  One of the things I understood about military service at the time (being a student of military history has consequences) was that torture and anti-torture training is routine and I am a wimp.  My sense of even minor pain is immense.  I nearly faint at a paper cut.  I'm not proud of that, but I do recognize it.

It was a very sobering night when I played the role of a Russian border patrol and captured an infiltrated Army agent and took him to the catacombs.  Walked the length of that place (this was near a bay in Baltimore) and heard the intense questioning and the torture techniques of those that had been captured and brought there.  I knew and the captured knew it was a training exercise and physical abuse was not allowed.  But still quite scary--I knew then that I did not want any part of Area Studies.  If I had had any guts, I would have packed up and headed for Canada.  But I was young and lucky--served in the Nam era and did not see combat. 

[Cavebear]

It was a very sobering night when I played the role of a Russian border patrol and captured an infiltrated Army agent and took him to the catacombs.  Walked the length of that place (this was near a bay in Baltimore) and heard the intense questioning and the torture techniques of those that had been captured and brought there.  I knew and the captured knew it was a training exercise and physical abuse was not allowed.  But still quite scary--I knew then that I did not want any part of Area Studies.  If I had had any guts, I would have packed up and headed for Canada.  But I was young and lucky--served in the Nam era and did not see combat.

Simulations can be very enlightening sometimes.  People assigned as prison guards can become very cruel to people assigned as prisoners.  People assigned to provide electric shocks to people they THINK are receivibg them for "wrong answers" can be induced to provide what the equipment says are "lethal" shocks. 

Human are depressingly manipulable.

[Mike Cl]

Simulations can be very enlightening sometimes.  People assigned as prison guards can become very cruel to people assigned as prisoners.  People assigned to provide electric shocks to people they THINK are receivibg them for "wrong answers" can be induced to provide what the equipment says are "lethal" shocks. 

Human are depressingly manipulable.

I found those experiments to quite interesting.  I'd like to think that I would not react in those (negative) ways--but I have not been tested in those ways, so who knows.

[Cavebear]

I found those experiments to quite interesting.  I'd like to think that I would not react in those (negative) ways--but I have not been tested in those ways, so who knows.

I suspect that those of us who know of such experiments are slightly less subject to them.  But maybe there are some people who would fall for them again and again and THOSE are the people I worry about.  The people I fear are the ones who would continue to shock others on command.  And they exist.

They vote for Trump...

[Mike Cl]

I suspect that those of us who know of such experiments are slightly less subject to them.  But maybe there are some people who would fall for them again and again and THOSE are the people I worry about.  The people I fear are the ones who would continue to shock others on command.  And they exist.

They vote for Trump...

This country is full of those types.  Not only do they vote for trump, they take trump as permission to act in the worst possible ways.  I call them Stupid Fucking Americans--and they are legion.

[Baruch]

This country is full of those types.  Not only do they vote for trump, they take trump as permission to act in the worst possible ways.  I call them Stupid Fucking Americans--and they are legion.

Takes one to know one.  Kill all Americans (sarc).

[Cavebear]

This country is full of those types.  Not only do they vote for trump, they take trump as permission to act in the worst possible ways.  I call them Stupid Fucking Americans--and they are legion.

Yeah, I do worry about the SFAs...

I'm tending toward blaming lead in the water myself.  I run the faucet each morning until I get hot water.  Then I know the old house pipes are clear.  Other than that I don't worry about it personally.  But I'm not sure my neighbors do, LOL!

And don't worry, I don't wear a foil cap.  I get my annual flu shot, and I don't think the "gummint" is spying on me....

[Baruch]

Yeah, I do worry about the SFAs...

I'm tending toward blaming lead in the water myself.  I run the faucet each morning until I get hot water.  Then I know the old house pipes are clear.  Other than that I don't worry about it personally.  But I'm not sure my neighbors do, LOL!

And don't worry, I don't wear a foil cap.  I get my annual flu shot, and I don't think the "gummint" is spying on me....

My apartment water is terrible.  Gave me kidney stones.  I look forward to a new place far far away.

[Cavebear]

My apartment water is terrible.  Gave me kidney stones.  I look forward to a new place far far away.

This may seem really odd, but one of the reasons I can't get myself to move to a better place for gardening is that I like the taste of the water here...

[Baruch]

This may seem really odd, but one of the reasons I can't get myself to move to a better place for gardening is that I like the taste of the water here...

Good reason.  I could have saved myself a lot of pain, had I only drank and cooked with bottled water.