Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?

Started by Greatest I am, July 25, 2019, 03:49:55 PM

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Cavebear

Quote from: Baruch on September 01, 2019, 08:14:18 AM
Lucky you.  Some poor Black bastard was sent in your place.  You know that is how the draft really worked.  Should have sent all the White college students first.

Yes, a stupid war by an evil President.

It is embarrassing to realize that you assume all Black people are illegitimate by birth.  Yes I know that isn't what you meant, but you should be more careful about what you say.

As to "white college students first", the war would have been over more quickly.  The military never really wanted college students.  They ask awkward questions.  The military then, as now, wants it basic soldiers to be willing to follow orders without questions. 

They didn't even want 20 year olds.  They wanted 18 year olds searching for authority figures to follow. 

I had a carpool member who served in Vietnam on the front lines.  He was a volunteer at 22.  He didn't talk about his experiences much (few do) but he mentioned once that he cringed when getting a new 18 year old draftee  They didn't last long.  His best units were older than him who asked questions, he said. 
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Baruch

Quote from: Cavebear on September 03, 2019, 01:30:06 AM
It is embarrassing to realize that you assume all Black people are illegitimate by birth.  Yes I know that isn't what you meant, but you should be more careful about what you say.

As to "white college students first", the war would have been over more quickly.  The military never really wanted college students.  They ask awkward questions.  The military then, as now, wants it basic soldiers to be willing to follow orders without questions. 

They didn't even want 20 year olds.  They wanted 18 year olds searching for authority figures to follow. 

I had a carpool member who served in Vietnam on the front lines.  He was a volunteer at 22.  He didn't talk about his experiences much (few do) but he mentioned once that he cringed when getting a new 18 year old draftee  They didn't last long.  His best units were older than him who asked questions, he said.

What?  You keep projecting from who knows what.  Stop it, you hippie.

Are Black people illegitimate ... you mean, they come from broken families, thanks to LBJ welfare mess?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_family_structure

Been increasing for all American children since the 60s.  Worse for African-Americans and Native Americans.  Yes, LBJ war and welfare was devastating for African-American families.  The problem with Native American families is older and more bi-partisan.

Don't care if you think that college students are unfit for military duty.  It is a fact, in the Vietnam period, that non-college students or unemployed young men were preferred.  Military is class based.  College graduates (I knew some) were inducted as officers, not as enlisted.  The smart college students insisted on staying in the lower ranks.  2nd Lt all went straight to Vietnam.  Bullet catchers.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Cavebear

Quote from: Baruch on September 03, 2019, 01:54:11 AM
What?  You keep projecting from who knows what.  Stop it, you hippie.

Are Black people illegitimate ... you mean, they come from broken families, thanks to LBJ welfare mess?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_family_structure

Been increasing for all American children since the 60s.  Worse for African-Americans and Native Americans.  Yes, LBJ war and welfare was devastating for African-American families.  The problem with Native American families is older and more bi-partisan.

Don't care if you think that college students are unfit for military duty.  It is a fact, in the Vietnam period, that non-college students or unemployed young men were preferred.  Military is class based.  College graduates (I knew some) were inducted as officers, not as enlisted.  The smart college students insisted on staying in the lower ranks.  2nd Lt all went straight to Vietnam.  Bullet catchers.

Do you just invent everything in your mind?  I didn't say college students (never mind grads) were "unfit for military duty".  It worked well in WWII.  But they did ask questions about orders.  My older relatives said so.  In Vietnam, the purpose of the fighting was so weak, the generals needed blind trainees to do as told without questions.  The results were not good.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Baruch

Quote from: Cavebear on September 03, 2019, 02:23:54 AM
Do you just invent everything in your mind?  I didn't say college students (never mind grads) were "unfit for military duty".  It worked well in WWII.  But they did ask questions about orders.  My older relatives said so.  In Vietnam, the purpose of the fighting was so weak, the generals needed blind trainees to do as told without questions.  The results were not good.

OK, talking past each other.  But otherwise, yes, I do invent everything in my mind, that is what it is useful for.

Yes, there were specific morale problems in Vietnam.  Godzilla can probably elucidate.  Prior to WW II, the Army estimated that half their existing officers were not up to snuff.  The only way to find out was to send them into combat.  I have read a book on the degeneration of Army leadership from after WW II until Desert Storm.  Basically by 1946, every good officer was either dead or getting out.  Only the unfit stayed in, and it showed in Korea and Vietnam.  And of course like in any endeavor ... looking good and going good are not the same.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Cavebear

Quote from: Baruch on September 03, 2019, 02:28:16 AM
OK, talking past each other.  But otherwise, yes, I do invent everything in my mind, that is what it is useful for.

Yes, there were specific morale problems in Vietnam.  Godzilla can probably elucidate.  Prior to WW II, the Army estimated that half their existing officers were not up to snuff.  The only way to find out was to send them into combat.  I have read a book on the degeneration of Army leadership from after WW II until Desert Storm.  Basically by 1946, every good officer was either dead or getting out.  Only the unfit stayed in, and it showed in Korea and Vietnam.  And of course like in any endeavor ... looking good and going good are not the same.

I still think you misunderstand the military thinking during the Vietnam war.  While there were certainly many very talented officers out of the Korea War and OCTS, the idea at the time was too oriented to training 18 year olds to just follow orders and "that would be OK".  It wasn't "OK".

18 year olds can't think like 25 year olds.  And as best I can understand the psychology of WWII, there were a lot of soldiers older than 18 (actual adults) and their ability to question orders and think with some life experience mattered a great deal.  When things got tough, having adult men around mattered.  It mattered in Korea too.

But somehow, the army got the idea during Vietnam that top-down orders worked better.  18 year olds were easier to train than adults.  That's why 25 year olds weren't drafted for the Vietnam War.

It was a bad idea.  Adult males may be a bit more difficult to train, but they make better soldiers in the long run. 

And I think that's where the difference is.  You can draft 18 year old kids who are still authority-driven and they will walk through a jungle because they are told to.  Or you can deal with guys a bit older and more mature and they they will think for themselves a bit and suggest "maybe we should go along that stone wall and set up there".
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Mike Cl

Quote from: Cavebear on September 03, 2019, 01:30:06 AM
It is embarrassing to realize that you assume all Black people are illegitimate by birth.  Yes I know that isn't what you meant, but you should be more careful about what you say.

As to "white college students first", the war would have been over more quickly.  The military never really wanted college students.  They ask awkward questions.  The military then, as now, wants it basic soldiers to be willing to follow orders without questions. 

They didn't even want 20 year olds.  They wanted 18 year olds searching for authority figures to follow. 

I had a carpool member who served in Vietnam on the front lines.  He was a volunteer at 22.  He didn't talk about his experiences much (few do) but he mentioned once that he cringed when getting a new 18 year old draftee  They didn't last long.  His best units were older than him who asked questions, he said.
You are probably correct about all that, Cavebear.  But two weeks after I graduated from college, Uncle Sam gave me a graduation present--drafted my white ass.  I was 21 at the time and could therefore drink and kill--I was all set!
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Cavebear

Quote from: Mike Cl on September 03, 2019, 09:19:28 AM
You are probably correct about all that, Cavebear.  But two weeks after I graduated from college, Uncle Sam gave me a graduation present--drafted my white ass.  I was 21 at the time and could therefore drink and kill--I was all set!

My sympathies to your white ass and the rest of you.  Did you serve?  I didn't know Uncle Sam drafted mature males.  I had a carpool member once who was a LT in Vietnam.  I never thought to ask him his age when he served.  He didn't talk about his experiences and I didn't ask.  But I had the impression that he was around 22-23 when drafted back in the mid 60s. 

I don't remember when the draft age reached 18.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Mike Cl

Quote from: Cavebear on September 03, 2019, 09:28:22 AM
My sympathies to your white ass and the rest of you.  Did you serve?  I didn't know Uncle Sam drafted mature males.  I had a carpool member once who was a LT in Vietnam.  I never thought to ask him his age when he served.  He didn't talk about his experiences and I didn't ask.  But I had the impression that he was around 22-23 when drafted back in the mid 60s. 

I don't remember when the draft age reached 18.
I was drafted prior to the assigning of numbers.  I was drafted in '68 (early) but begged another semester from the draft board because I had already registered for my post-graduate slate of classes.  In June I was seeing green everywhere I looked (except in my wallet).  I served 3 years because in that deferred semester, I joined the Army.  I was going into Area Studies because of my history background.  I was promised I would learn a language and then be sent somewhere where I could use it.  (To set up spy rings--only they failed to mention that--and always in Cambodia, Laos, or Vietnam--they failed to mention that, as well)  So, I joined to stay out of combat.  Only the joke was on me, for Area Studies graduation always ended up in a combat zone somewhere.  (Only they failed to mention that)  Somehow, tho, in my 3 yr tour I managed to stay out of combat.  I was lucky!!
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Cavebear

Quote from: Mike Cl on September 03, 2019, 09:38:14 AM
I was drafted prior to the assigning of numbers.  I was drafted in '68 (early) but begged another semester from the draft board because I had already registered for my post-graduate slate of classes.  In June I was seeing green everywhere I looked (except in my wallet).  I served 3 years because in that deferred semester, I joined the Army.  I was going into Area Studies because of my history background.  I was promised I would learn a language and then be sent somewhere where I could use it.  (To set up spy rings--only they failed to mention that--and always in Cambodia, Laos, or Vietnam--they failed to mention that, as well)  So, I joined to stay out of combat.  Only the joke was on me, for Area Studies graduation always ended up in a combat zone somewhere.  (Only they failed to mention that)  Somehow, tho, in my 3 yr tour I managed to stay out of combat.  I was lucky!!

I am glad you avoided combat.  Though apparently, you sure came close to it.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Baruch

My informant was already college graduate, and working in the Defense industry, when he was drafted at 23.  With all respect for Cavebears theory that 18 year olds are stupid, I think the far more influential inhibition on combat is soldiers who are married, and if parents of young children, even more so.  In the case of Vietnam, they had the additional lubrication of local MJ.  But my grandfather, in WW II, told me about man-made alcohol (in Muslim lands).  And my father, who was in the Navy, told me about the attractions of tattoos and European whorehouses to 19 year old sailors ;-)
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Mike Cl

Quote from: Cavebear on September 03, 2019, 09:43:53 AM
I am glad you avoided combat.  Though apparently, you sure came close to it.
I came very very close.  In fact, I can only explain it as pure dumb luck.  After basic, I was sent to Ft. Holibird (Baltimore) for my 16 weeks of Area Studies training.  I was put into the holding company as my next class would not be for another 4 months.  I was then offered a chance to go to Counterintelligence training since it would kick off in the next week.  I jumped at the chance because I had learned what Area Studies really was.  The classes were 50 soldiers.  As weeks 13/14 rolled around, duty stations became a concern--the last 7 cycles had all been sent to Nam--all 50 at a time.  Once again, luck reared its head.  All the people in my class who had requested Germany, got it.  Only three of us picked Japan.  We did not get orders with the rest--had to wait 2 weeks to get them.  All three of us figured Nam was our destination.  As lady luck proclaimed, tho, we all went to Hawaii.  And that was as close to a combat zone I came to.  Lucky, lucky, lucky!!
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Cavebear

Quote from: Mike Cl on September 03, 2019, 12:59:25 PM
I came very very close.  In fact, I can only explain it as pure dumb luck.  After basic, I was sent to Ft. Holibird (Baltimore) for my 16 weeks of Area Studies training.  I was put into the holding company as my next class would not be for another 4 months.  I was then offered a chance to go to Counterintelligence training since it would kick off in the next week.  I jumped at the chance because I had learned what Area Studies really was.  The classes were 50 soldiers.  As weeks 13/14 rolled around, duty stations became a concern--the last 7 cycles had all been sent to Nam--all 50 at a time.  Once again, luck reared its head.  All the people in my class who had requested Germany, got it.  Only three of us picked Japan.  We did not get orders with the rest--had to wait 2 weeks to get them.  All three of us figured Nam was our destination.  As lady luck proclaimed, tho, we all went to Hawaii.  And that was as close to a combat zone I came to.  Lucky, lucky, lucky!!

But one might note that you qualified for counter-intelligence or some skill and were not viewed as teenage cannon-fodder...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Baruch

Quote from: Cavebear on September 03, 2019, 01:15:12 PM
But one might note that you qualified for counter-intelligence or some skill and were not viewed as teenage cannon-fodder...

Wrong again.  The counter-intel folks got very close to VietCong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Program

I know someone, whose first husband was in the Phoenix Program.  He never got over the torture and murder of Vietnamese he participated in.  But it was the only successful program the US had in Vietnam.

Another guy I worked with, he was cannon fodder.  Air Cavalry.  He was in for a few months, on patrols, and requested transfer to Army transport instead.  A month later his whole platoon was wiped out in an ambush.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Mike Cl

Quote from: Cavebear on September 03, 2019, 01:15:12 PM
But one might note that you qualified for counter-intelligence or some skill and were not viewed as teenage cannon-fodder...
You are correct.  I was not viewed as teenage cannon-fodder.  I was young adult cannon fodder.  I was lied to by the first agent I was interviewed by--Area Studies was training for the Phoenix Program.  While in Casual Company (what they called the group waiting for schools to open up) I was used to take students in various stages of their classes from one training exercise to another.  I learned what Area Studies was from that activity.  Torture techniques was one of the classes taught.  And how to withstand torture was another.  That is why I jumped into Counterintelligence when given the chance.  And make no mistake--any branch of the service could use their members in any fashion they deemed necessary.  That has always been the case and always will be.   
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Cavebear

Quote from: Baruch on September 03, 2019, 11:11:30 AM
My informant was already college graduate, and working in the Defense industry, when he was drafted at 23.  With all respect for Cavebears theory that 18 year olds are stupid, I think the far more influential inhibition on combat is soldiers who are married, and if parents of young children, even more so.  In the case of Vietnam, they had the additional lubrication of local MJ.  But my grandfather, in WW II, told me about man-made alcohol (in Muslim lands).  And my father, who was in the Navy, told me about the attractions of tattoos and European whorehouses to 19 year old sailors ;-)

I didn't say 18 year's olds were stupid.  I said they were not mature adults.  There is a difference.  And I didn't say they can't fight.  But looking back, I don't think 18 year olds are completely adults. 
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!