Author Topic: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?  (Read 2402 times)

Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2019, 04:51:11 PM »
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... Look at the benefits Washington gained from raising their minimum wage...

Regards
DL




There are mixed results. Many ended up with reduced working hours. Also one cannot gauge how many new employees may or may not have been hired due to this wage increase to $15. Seattle has a thriving economy compared to the rest of the state, so in those circumstances, wage increase would have been the norm. So applying this idea to the rest of the country is an iffy proposition.


What's left out in these proposals is who will pay for these increases? We do, you and I, in the form of higher prices, which makes the rest of us poorer.

Offline Baruch

Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2019, 07:08:36 PM »
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There are mixed results. Many ended up with reduced working hours. Also one cannot gauge how many new employees may or may not have been hired due to this wage increase to $15. Seattle has a thriving economy compared to the rest of the state, so in those circumstances, wage increase would have been the norm. So applying this idea to the rest of the country is an iffy proposition.


What's left out in these proposals is who will pay for these increases? We do, you and I, in the form of higher prices, which makes the rest of us poorer.

That can be fixed thru Socialism.  Government tells you who and how many to hire.  Government tells you how to run every aspect of your business.  Government orders your customers to buy from you.  Don't got money?  No problem, just print it like there is no maΓ±ana.  Socialism works everywhere you have a majority of sociopaths.
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Shiranu

Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2019, 08:05:45 PM »
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I generally agree with your views except for your "How about much higher taxes on the wealthy"

My view of a fair tax code is that after all are pulled over the poverty line, all pay the same % of tax.

I do not see a tax law that targets the rich more than the poor to be fair.

Care to give us an argument that justifies nailing the rich more than the rest who are not as rich?

Regards
DL 
 

Either way, life isn't fair; tax the rich more than they think they should be, or leave the poor to fend for themselves... either way, some one is offended.

I figure the rich can afford to lose more than the poor can, so it's simply common sense to take from those who can afford it rather than those who cant.
Quod est inferius, est sicut quod est superius.
Et quod est superius, est sicut quod est inferius.

Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2019, 08:37:19 PM »
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I am of an age, where getting thru the day gets harder every day.  Moving to where my daughter lives, Farmington NM.  Will ask the native spirits to protect you.  I will ask big drunk Navaho men to protect me ;-)

Sounds nice for you.

My wife and I just went Vegan.

It seems to be as good for our bodies as some postulate. Energy is up and our bodies seem to like it for other, eh, bathroom reasons. The variety of foods is also adding to our culinary cooking skills.

What The Health had an older hardened farmer crying about how newer farming methods where not only inhumane but also wrecking the waterways near his farm and community.

I am a hard hearted guy myself, --- who fished and hunted and I had no problem killing even my grown for food rabbits by hand with a twist of the wrist, --- but enough is enough of the inhuman way we now raise our food stocks.

In the religious forums, I am running an O.P. suggesting that we should scrap our vile gods and turn to Gaia worship so that we do better with the environment before we drive ourselves into being one of the species that are now a part of our present major extinction event.

Regards
DL

   

Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2019, 08:40:39 PM »
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Either way, life isn't fair; tax the rich more than they think they should be, or leave the poor to fend for themselves... either way, some one is offended.

I figure the rich can afford to lose more than the poor can, so it's simply common sense to take from those who can afford it rather than those who cant.

They can, but that does not warrant the rest of us doing as you suggest and throwing our morals out the window.

Regards
DL

Offline Shiranu

Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2019, 08:47:09 PM »
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They can, but that does not warrant the rest of us doing as you suggest and throwing our morals out the window.

Regards
DL

The ultra-rich are not rich because of their hard work, they are rich because they exploited their way to the top and built their empires on the back of the working class.

There is nothing unethical about demanding they pay us a fair share in return. They can even stay far more rich than they have the slightest right to.

The truly moral thing would be to do as Baurch suggested and kill the rich. Letting them live and taking them a fair share from them is the next most moral option.
Quod est inferius, est sicut quod est superius.
Et quod est superius, est sicut quod est inferius.

Offline Baruch

Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2019, 10:21:53 PM »
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Either way, life isn't fair; tax the rich more than they think they should be, or leave the poor to fend for themselves... either way, some one is offended.

I figure the rich can afford to lose more than the poor can, so it's simply common sense to take from those who can afford it rather than those who cant.

Life isn't fair.  Not nice, but true.  Envy and jealousy are terrible sins.  You have shown your colors (from each according to their ability, to each according to their need).  I hope your social media posts don't prevent you from your plans, since you haven't chosen Cuba.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2019, 10:25:03 PM by Baruch »
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Shiranu

Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2019, 01:25:42 AM »
Quote
Life isn't fair.  Not nice, but true.  Envy and jealousy are terrible sins.

I don't envy or feel jealousy of the ultra-rich, I pity and despise them.
Quod est inferius, est sicut quod est superius.
Et quod est superius, est sicut quod est inferius.

Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #38 on: July 27, 2019, 08:17:44 AM »
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They can, but that does not warrant the rest of us doing as you suggest and throwing our morals out the window.

Regards
DL

Applying morality without an understanding of economic principles will land you into an absurd position as what you are proposing is self-defeating.

Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #39 on: July 27, 2019, 09:45:02 AM »
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The ultra-rich are not rich because of their hard work, they are rich because they exploited their way to the top and built their empires on the back of the working class.

There is nothing unethical about demanding they pay us a fair share in return. They can even stay far more rich than they have the slightest right to.

The truly moral thing would be to do as Baurch suggested and kill the rich. Letting them live and taking them a fair share from them is the next most moral option.

Killing anyone for anything other than killing is overkill, justice wise.

Further, a country cannot be seen as venerating life when it is taking it.

You seem to want to blame the rich for the present poor tax laws that helped them get where they are, and they do deserve their share, but ultimately it is the voter like you and I who empowered the thieves.

If we are to penalize them for their greed, we also have to punish us for our stupidity and acceptance of the status quo for so long, not to mention putting Trump into office and allowing the latest cash grab by the rich.

Regards
DL
« Last Edit: July 27, 2019, 09:47:30 AM by Greatest I am »

Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #40 on: July 27, 2019, 09:50:01 AM »
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Applying morality without an understanding of economic principles will land you into an absurd position as what you are proposing is self-defeating.

How so?

Would you carry that line for the past 2 hundred years or so as you see that what you call self defeating has produced so much gain for us?

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Regards
DL
« Last Edit: July 27, 2019, 09:52:22 AM by Greatest I am »

Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #41 on: July 27, 2019, 10:57:03 AM »
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How so?

Would you carry that line for the past 2 hundred years or so as you see that what you call self defeating has produced so much gain for us?

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Regards
DL

First of all, your video doesn't answer my post. If you don't understand economic principles, which so far you seem to be the case, you will end up ignoring what are the consequences of your proposals. Point in case, your minimum wage proposals - that has been studied in so many ways in economic theories. There are certain benefits to minimum wages but also there are disadvantages, which you are completely ignoring.


 Suppose you are the owner of a business with a staff of 15 people earning $10/hr. You are now forced to a minimum wage of $15/hr. What do you do? (1) It's possible this can force you into bankruptcy - 15 people out of a job. (2) But you can lay off 10 people so that 15 people X $10 = 10 people X$15, so that your cost is the same but still 5 people have to go home without a pay. (3) Or keep all of your staff at the higher wage and raise your prices - chances are you will decrease your revenue as people cut down on buying your products as they cannot afford them at a higher price. Those who are still buying your product have less money in their pocket and therefore must cut down on other products, which mean that other working people in other sectors of the economy will lose their jobs. So when wages are increased by force, not market driven, then any of these three possibilities will in fact occur, depending on the business, how it is managed, and how competitive the market is. 

As to your video, it tries too much to trivialize a complex situation into a simple cause-and-effect case.

Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #42 on: July 27, 2019, 01:39:49 PM »
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In the religious forums, I am running an O.P. suggesting that we should scrap our vile gods and turn to Gaia worship so that we do better with the environment before we drive ourselves into being one of the species that are now a part of our present major extinction event.

It's hard to convince people that Gaia even exists, that the planet's biosphere is a single living organism. It seems to be more a matter of philosophy than science for most people, because they haven't read Lovelock. So I doubt you've had many converts on those forums!

But if I were going to worship anything, and work towards converting others, it would be some sort of Gaia theology. But Gaia isn't a [G]od, just an isolated photo-chemical process that's occurring on a ball of rock flying through the void, trying to continue its existence as long as possible.
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"An experiment is a question which science poses to Nature, and a measurement is the recording of Nature's answer."
Max Planck, Scientific Autobiography and Other Papers (1949)

Offline Munch

Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #43 on: July 27, 2019, 02:16:38 PM »
I think most of us on this thread should consider ourselves fortunate we live in countries that at least even being run by a corrupt government, that there is still opportunity, support and a system in place to at least be comfortable, as opposed to countries with corrupt governments that don't have these things in place.

Offline Shiranu

Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #44 on: July 27, 2019, 02:50:31 PM »
Quote
Killing anyone for anything other than killing is overkill, justice wise.

Further, a country cannot be seen as venerating life when it is taking it.

I was being a tad hyperbolic.

Quote
You seem to want to blame the rich for the present poor tax laws that helped them get where they are, and they do deserve their share, but ultimately it is the voter like you and I who empowered the thieves.

Completely disagreed.

Corrupt officials don't answer to the people who elected them; hence the reason they are called corrupt. Victim blaming solves absolutely nothing at best, and just legitimizes the corruptors at worst.


Quote
I think most of us on this thread should consider ourselves fortunate we live in countries that at least even being run by a corrupt government, that there is still opportunity, support and a system in place to at least be comfortable, as opposed to countries with corrupt governments that don't have these things in place.

Agreed, which makes it a good thing that no one seems to be taking that for granted here.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2019, 09:37:22 PM by Shiranu »
Quod est inferius, est sicut quod est superius.
Et quod est superius, est sicut quod est inferius.

 

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