Author Topic: The right to abort  (Read 1627 times)

The right to abort
« on: July 05, 2019, 04:47:12 PM »
What do you think about abortion ?
I think it is a right needing to be protected.

In my country (France) you can abort one month and one week after the beginning of the pregnancy if drugs are used for abortion.
In my country (France) you can abort three month after the beginning of the pregnancy if surgery is used.
I think the delay must to be extended because many people living in France go in another country to abort because of delayed time.
For example in Netherlands and UK you have six month after the beginning of the pregnancy to abort and for this reason many women in France go abort in these countries.

I think what happens in USA about abortion is sad with these states that want to reduce situations in which abortion is a legal possibility.
I feel concerned as a human because I think it is a matter of individual liberty.
I feel concerned as a male because I don't forget one of my sexual partners will maybe face an abortion in her life.
If a day a woman with which I had a sexual intercourse say me she want to abort and ask my opinion. I would say her its her body not mine and let her do what she want.

I feel concerned as a Westerner because I don't forget USA is a country of the Western world that is considered like the reference for many things by non Westerners and could influence non Western countries.
Whats happens in a country of the Western world it can influence non Western country in a bad path.
Abortion is complicate in many non Western countries and I fear what's happens in USA will worsen the situation in these countries.

I feel concerned as a citizen of European Union (All citizens of a state member of European Union are also legally citizen of EU) because I don't forget abortion is fully illegal in Republic of Malta and only authorized in some situation in Republic of Poland and Republic of Cyprus.
I fear whats happens in USA will encourage no progression about the issue of abortion in these countries.

I feel concerned as a French citizen because nowadays abortion isn't under legal threat to be outlawed in France.
But nobody know what would be the situation in some decades.

Re: The right to abort
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2019, 05:00:04 PM »
I think the laws against abortion in the U.S.A. are a violation of the separation of church and state. But I'm just one guy, with no influence at all on what anyone does. As far as I'm concerned, as long as the baby is still attached to the mother by the umbilical cord it's still part of her body, and she can do as she likes with her own body. Up to a point, that is, since the baby should be allowed to survive once it's viable. 
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 08:19:46 PM by Unbeliever »
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Offline aitm

Re: The right to abort
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2019, 08:04:09 PM »
I would abide with the majority vote of all the female voting and only females voting.....once decided I still would not give a shit what others thought....a person should have the absolute right of their own body.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Re: The right to abort
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2019, 11:11:15 PM »
I have a legal question about abortion in the State of Georgia.
As the law will prohibit women to abort outside of boundaries of Georgia.
Abort outside of GA will be a matters concerning two places.
In my example these two places are Geo. and another place in which abortion is legal elsewhere in USA.

Legally , I doubt the law enforcement from the place in which abortion will take place will collaborate with Georgian authority unless they have an agreement with Georgia or state law prohibit people coming from a place in which abortion is illegal to abort in their state or a law prohibit non resident in their state to abort.
I can conclude it does means Georgian law will be de facto unenforceable if the woman is well organized to hide the fact she had an abortion in another American state because in my knowledge the authorities of the other state won't collaborate unless they have an agreement with the State of Peach or a state law prohibit people coming from a place in which abortion is illegal to abort in their state or a law prohibit non resident in their state to abort.

But does it exist federal law prohibit women prohibited by theirs state law to abort outside of their state if the state law specify that abortion is illegal even if theirs residents do it outside of its boundaries ?
In my knowledge it doesn't exist any federal law that say it explicitly but maybe it does exist a federal law that say it implicitly.
In this case a Georgian resident going in another state to abort would be committing a federal offense and in this case FBI (Federal Bureau of Investigation) would have its cards to play to investigate about those who had an abortion and others people in Georgia who helped the women.
I hope it doesn't exist a federal law to prohibit implicitly people to do something prohibited by their state in another state if their state law forbid to do this thing outside of its boundaries.
If it does exist a federal law that can be used to prosecute these women. Women who want to abort will need to go in another country than USA to avoid collection of evidences by FBI because authorities of the other country would not collaborate (Look the legislation of the other country to be certain authorities of this country won't collaborate and be certain to have an abortion. Go in the other country with a cover of tourist and don't speak of your project with your accomplices by electronical means. To reduce the risk of detection wait to be in the other country to contact clinic and doctors. I'm not incitating you to violate the law because I'm just recalling you the perfect crime doesn't exist).

I know only one federal law that can be used to prosecute people who did something illegal in their state in another state but legal there.
This is the "Mann Act" also known as "White-Slave Traffic Act of 1910" or its long title "An Act to further regulate interstate and foreign commerce by prohibiting the transportation therein for immoral purposes of women and girls, and for other purposes."
This act can be used to prosecute people who want to have non-paid consensual sexual intercourse with his / her boy(girl)friend aged of 16 years old in a state in which legal age of consent is 16 if the person is from a state in which legal age of consent is 17 years old and crossing the borders to do sex (Cross to the state in which legal age of consent is 17 to go in another one for which legal age of consent is 16).

Wikipedia about Mann act : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mann_Act

Offline Baruch

Re: The right to abort
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2019, 03:37:32 PM »
Since I don't support morality ... I can be pragmatic.  I know people won't stop being irresponsible.  And some pregnancies will be medically questionable.  So "free choice" abortion in the first trimester seems a good compromise (early enough to prevent undue trauma to fetus).  And I don't see the state being involved otherwise.  Just the pregnant woman and the doctor.  Not the father, not the parents.  Again for pragmatic reasons.  I don't see things in terms of "rights" ... so her "right" to have an abortion, or that of other parties to prohibit abortion are moot.  It is simply a circumscribed medical issue.  Ideally, abortion shouldn't be used for birth control, medically.  There are better methods.

In general, I am totally opposed to the notion of "human rights" or "entitlements".  These just open many ways for self abuse and sociopathy.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Offline Cavebear

Re: The right to abort
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2019, 04:31:42 AM »
I think the answer is simple.  The woman decides.  It's her body.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: The right to abort
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2019, 06:20:53 AM »
I think the answer is simple.  The woman decides.  It's her body.

Yes, so she should be able to rob banks too.  How chivalric of you.  Did you support Patty Hearst after she turned?
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Offline Cavebear

Re: The right to abort
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2019, 06:35:22 AM »
Yes, so she should be able to rob banks too.  How chivalric of you.  Did you support Patty Hearst after she turned?

If I argued like you do, I would ask how often you beat your pets and "sieg heil" your Hitler poster.  Do you even contemplate how weak your arguments are?
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: The right to abort
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2019, 11:24:05 AM »
If I argued like you do, I would ask how often you beat your pets and "sieg heil" your Hitler poster.  Do you even contemplate how weak your arguments are?

I used to be a Jew with Nazi edged weapons.  But not just Nazi ... US, other European, Japanese ...

So no, I don't have a Hitler poster, or a Stalin poster.  Haven't had those since I swore off US political parties.

I am not worried about impressing people.  I am surprised you haven't gotten a clear impression of that POV yet.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Offline Cavebear

Re: The right to abort
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2019, 07:05:59 PM »
I used to be a Jew with Nazi edged weapons.  But not just Nazi ... US, other European, Japanese ...

So no, I don't have a Hitler poster, or a Stalin poster.  Haven't had those since I swore off US political parties.

I am not worried about impressing people.  I am surprised you haven't gotten a clear impression of that POV yet.

If I didn't know you, I couldn't have provoked you like that.  It was intentional.  Do you understand how often you promote Nazi political views?  Are you getting angry now?  You like to do that to others.  How is the shoe fitting?

You should take a week off (I took off a month , did you notice?) and re-think trying to play head games with others.  Most of us here are quite capable of that and...  don't.  I'm a bit more forward...

Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: The right to abort
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2019, 08:35:45 PM »
If I didn't know you, I couldn't have provoked you like that.  It was intentional.  Do you understand how often you promote Nazi political views?  Are you getting angry now?  You like to do that to others.  How is the shoe fitting?

You should take a week off (I took off a month , did you notice?) and re-think trying to play head games with others.  Most of us here are quite capable of that and...  don't.  I'm a bit more forward...

Do you understand you are an apparatchik for the communist party?  Yeah, I usually notice when someone tries to scare me into my "safe space"  but I don't have one, and I am not 20 years old.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Offline Sal1981

Re: The right to abort
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2019, 08:45:50 PM »
Since I don't support morality ... I can be pragmatic.  I know people won't stop being irresponsible.  And some pregnancies will be medically questionable.  So "free choice" abortion in the first trimester seems a good compromise (early enough to prevent undue trauma to fetus).  And I don't see the state being involved otherwise.  Just the pregnant woman and the doctor.  Not the father, not the parents.  Again for pragmatic reasons.  I don't see things in terms of "rights" ... so her "right" to have an abortion, or that of other parties to prohibit abortion are moot.  It is simply a circumscribed medical issue.  Ideally, abortion shouldn't be used for birth control, medically.  There are better methods.

In general, I am totally opposed to the notion of "human rights" or "entitlements".  These just open many ways for self abuse and sociopathy.
"Rights" is a human construct. A construct that works and is useful. However, I don't think anyone is entitled to anything, other than what can be forced by yourself, upon yourself.

If you want cohesion and a practical society, then you probably want to introduce tolerance into the system. This is the operant case for social cohesion, thanks in large part to the unspoken social contract: I won't bother you, if you won't bother me.


The result is the same for practicality as it is for rights, at least in this instance.
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" --- Richard P. Feynman

Offline Baruch

Re: The right to abort
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2019, 09:14:44 PM »
"Rights" is a human construct. A construct that works and is useful. However, I don't think anyone is entitled to anything, other than what can be forced by yourself, upon yourself.

If you want cohesion and a practical society, then you probably want to introduce tolerance into the system. This is the operant case for social cohesion, thanks in large part to the unspoken social contract: I won't bother you, if you won't bother me.


The result is the same for practicality as it is for rights, at least in this instance.

Exactly why I figure a compromise position is good enough (given then I am not going to get pregnant) and I already have figured out how to support my daughter if she gets pregnant.  These abstract concepts though, tend to turn into boulders rolling downhill, gathering moss etc.  Activists are like that.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Offline Cavebear

Re: The right to abort
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2019, 09:04:29 AM »
Do you understand you are an apparatchik for the communist party?  Yeah, I usually notice when someone tries to scare me into my "safe space"  but I don't have one, and I am not 20 years old.

I love regulated capitalism.  If I suggested a liberal policy, you would call it "communist".  If I suggested a conservative policy, you would call it "communist".  You are already convinced I'm a communist for thinking businesses should be regulated at all.

And I don't know or want to invade your "safe space".
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: The right to abort
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2019, 03:24:45 PM »
I love regulated capitalism.  If I suggested a liberal policy, you would call it "communist".  If I suggested a conservative policy, you would call it "communist".  You are already convinced I'm a communist for thinking businesses should be regulated at all.

And I don't know or want to invade your "safe space".

Rhetoric.  We aren't playing nerf ball.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.