Author Topic: Did Jesus practice what he preached?  (Read 1438 times)

Re: Did Jesus practice what he preached?
« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2019, 10:17:58 AM »
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Add to that we don't have the original text. What we have are copies from scribes, done over and over, often with mistakes, insertions and deletions. And what beats it all, it was written in Greek, not in Aramaic, Jesus' supposed language.
That is a very important fact.  Most christians believe the bible was dropped from the sky from God, intact and perfect (and written in English, of course); and they have that belief despite the fact they have not even read most of it themselves.  Christians don't like to think about the bible having a history.

You are right about the bible being crafted in Greek.  When Paul was writing his letters, he  referred to 'scripture', and quoted from it.  Most think he is referring to the NT, when in fact, it had not been crafted yet, for he was the first writer of that yet to be collection of writings.  And he was referring to the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew OT--Paul never read the NT.  We know this because he repeated the mistakes the Greek Translators made in the Septuagint.   
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: Did Jesus practice what he preached?
« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2019, 10:29:35 AM »
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Add to that we don't have the original text. What we have are copies from scribes, done over and over, often with mistakes, insertions and deletions. And what beats it all, it was written in Greek, not in Aramaic, Jesus' supposed language.

Funny thing about the Gospels. If you ran threm through the software professors use to detect plagiarism, I'm certain half of them would come up positive. The earliest Gospel, Mark, of course would be safe because it's the one the others are cheating off of. And the one remaining, Luke, appears to at least use it's own words when describing the same things.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville

Offline Cavebear

Re: Did Jesus practice what he preached?
« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2019, 11:13:12 AM »
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Funny thing about the Gospels. If you ran threm through the software professors use to detect plagiarism, I'm certain half of them would come up positive. The earliest Gospel, Mark, of course would be safe because it's the one the others are cheating off of. And the one remaining, Luke, appears to at least use it's own words when describing the same things.

I might suggest that all of the Christian bible is plagaristic.  I don't bother to remember stuff like that much (all religious texts are about the same to me), but the Noah story came from Sumeria and the whole Eden thing seems Babylonian IIRC. 
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: Did Jesus practice what he preached?
« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2019, 11:46:14 AM »
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Funny thing about the Gospels. If you ran threm through the software professors use to detect plagiarism, I'm certain half of them would come up positive. The earliest Gospel, Mark, of course would be safe because it's the one the others are cheating off of. And the one remaining, Luke, appears to at least use it's own words when describing the same things.

Mark borrowed the Q portion from Thomas.
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: Did Jesus practice what he preached?
« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2019, 12:05:44 PM »
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An Evaluation of Ehrman's Did Jesus Exist

Thank you. I was not aware of this book and will get a copy.

The historicity question for me is a matter of curiosity. It's not as if it's settled in favor of the historical Jesus I'll become convinced of anything else, but it is an interesting problem.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room! -- President Merkin Muffley

My mom was a religious fundamentalist. Plus, she didn't have a mouth. It's an unusual combination. -- Bender Bending Rodriguez

Offline Baruch

Re: Did Jesus practice what he preached?
« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2019, 12:11:55 PM »
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Thank you. I was not aware of this book and will get a copy.

The historicity question for me is a matter of curiosity. It's not as if it's settled in favor of the historical Jesus I'll become convinced of anything else, but it is an interesting problem.

History is bunk - Henry Ford
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: Did Jesus practice what he preached?
« Reply #36 on: August 05, 2019, 03:01:46 PM »
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Mark borrowed the Q portion from Thomas.

The existence of the Q document has't been demonstrated, has it?
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"An experiment is a question which science poses to Nature, and a measurement is the recording of Nature's answer."
Max Planck, Scientific Autobiography and Other Papers (1949)

Re: Did Jesus practice what he preached?
« Reply #37 on: August 05, 2019, 03:08:04 PM »
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The existence of the Q document has't been demonstrated, has it?

It is hypothetical, but there are good reasons to think it existed. For example, Marc frequently interrupts his own narrative to incorporate specific topics, but there's nothing to suggest later interpolations  for most of them (there is almost certainly an interpolation at the end of the book). It's like he thinks, "Oh, yeah, I've got to add this before I forget" as he's referencing the Q source and shoehorns them in where they don't seem to belong. That's just one of the reasons why textual critics have confidence in the hypothesis.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room! -- President Merkin Muffley

My mom was a religious fundamentalist. Plus, she didn't have a mouth. It's an unusual combination. -- Bender Bending Rodriguez

Offline Baruch

Re: Did Jesus practice what he preached?
« Reply #38 on: August 05, 2019, 05:48:57 PM »
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The existence of the Q document has't been demonstrated, has it?

Nothing has been demonstrated ... no originals ... if that is the standard.  That and signed confessions of fantasizing and plagiarism would be nice!

There is a whole literature on Q.  But for Historical Jesus narrative, it is important to dismiss the relationship between Q and Thomas.  Back in the day, I examined the relationship in detail (mid 90s) without the need for a controlling narrative.  The excuse, technically, for the "establishment" to dismiss Thomas, is because:

1. we don't have a full copy of a Greek original, just fragments but ...
2. it is suggestive that the full Coptic version (which seems second generation), was translated from the Greek
3. the structure of Q is assumed to be that of Q-in-Luke, not Q-in-Matthew or Q-in-Mark.
4. if Mark has priority over Matthew or Luke, then implies academic arm twisting of the conclusion
5. so if the original order of sayings is random, because order should show "newer" rather than "older"
6. and given that the Q-in-Luke order is necessary to support the Luke "acts of Jesus" narrative ...

Then a Greek Thomas, original version (not based on second generation Coptic text) would be the original form.  And given that a "Sayings" document (not a Gospel at all) is going to be, complexity wise, earlier ... then an original Greek Thomas is closest to the original Jesus "sayings" tradition.  Some individual verse judgements by the Jesus Seminar put Thomas as before Mark (clue).  And at one point I wrote out a color coded version of the "Q" per Jesus Seminar.  Remembering that I was taking the orthogonal method of Crossan into account as well (control).

So one can reconstruct a Greek original Thomas, from the second generation Coptic Thomas, with observations of the other three comparable Gospels (not the whole apocryphal literature).  This aren't the original words of Jesus, because there was no such person.  But like trying many centuries on, trying to determine for Lawrence of Arabia which version of Seven Pillars of Wisdom reflects Lawrence's original vision.  Lawrence rewrote and republished that book several times.  And having done that, one is still left with whether any of what Lawrence describes (his rape by the Turkish governor in Daara in particular) as being factual or not.

So yes, there can never, even in orthodox circles, even be a universal agreement on Q ... because apologetics/polemics.  And there can't be a plausible acknowledgement that original Greek Thomas has priority over the 4 Gospels ... again because of apologetics/polemics between Historical Jesus scholars.  But I am utterly convinced both of Q and the priority of Thomas.  For what it is worth.  Because ancient literature is bollocks anyway.

A similar analysis of the acts of Jesus, show that basically none of it is plausible.  Fantasy novellas.  Also that the content of Paul's letters, would indicate that the views of the Johannine community came before that of the Mark/Matthew/Luke communities.  And the Didache also speaks volumes as to how early Pauline Church went.

So why did this remnant heretical Jewish literature become so damn important?  Could just as well have been Paul's wife's grocery list "A Canticle for Leibowitz"
« Last Edit: August 05, 2019, 05:56:41 PM by Baruch »
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: Did Jesus practice what he preached?
« Reply #39 on: August 05, 2019, 10:19:00 PM »
The issue of Jesus' physical existence has never been resolved. At best, scholar's today accept a wondering rabbi, called something like 'Yeshua bar Yusuf' probably existed in first century Judea.  That he may have upset the wrong people and gotten himself crucified.  Judea was neck deep in wondering rabbis at that time. Literally thousands of Jews were crucified by the Romans during the Roman occupation. There's nothing very remarkable  about the likely life and death of Yesua bar Yusuf

The collected writings known as the "New Testament" have little if anything to do with a real person.  These writing are the mythology of Christianity.

Yeshua may have begun a small Jewish sect. Initially, one had to be Jewish or convert to Judaism to belong. That included the keeping the mitzvah of the bris (circumcision) and dietary laws. Yeshua  apparently taught at he would return 'soon' That is, that his disciples believed he his return was imminent, or would at least return during the lifetimes of the disciples. When he did not return, the sect would have faded away. Then along came Paul----

The New Testament records Jesus as saying he would not change the law 'by a jot or a tittle'(Matthew 5;18) nor did he. But  Paul did. It was he who abolished the ritual commandments, such as circumcision, and allowed gentiles to join. The new sect was very popular with the marginalised of society, especially slaves and women. It grew quickly.

The Religion called Christianity should perhaps be more correctly called 'Paulism'

To answer the question: I'm pretty confident that the man,  the devout rabbi, Yeshua/Jesus  probably lived as he taught. However, because we know nothing about this man ,we don't  really know how he acted.

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((9)))))))))))))))))))))))))))

*Matthew 5:18 "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."



References;"Misquoting Jesus" Bart Ehrlman, 'Paul; The Mind Of The Apostle' A N Wilson.

Offline Cavebear

Re: Did Jesus practice what he preached?
« Reply #40 on: August 08, 2019, 01:59:53 PM »
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The issue of Jesus' physical existence has never been resolved. At best, scholar's today accept a wondering rabbi, called something like 'Yeshua bar Yusuf' probably existed in first century Judea.  That he may have upset the wrong people and gotten himself crucified.  Judea was neck deep in wondering rabbis at that time. Literally thousands of Jews were crucified by the Romans during the Roman occupation. There's nothing very remarkable  about the likely life and death of Yesua bar Yusuf

The collected writings known as the "New Testament" have little if anything to do with a real person.  These writing are the mythology of Christianity.

Yeshua may have begun a small Jewish sect. Initially, one had to be Jewish or convert to Judaism to belong. That included the keeping the mitzvah of the bris (circumcision) and dietary laws. Yeshua  apparently taught at he would return 'soon' That is, that his disciples believed he his return was imminent, or would at least return during the lifetimes of the disciples. When he did not return, the sect would have faded away. Then along came Paul----

The New Testament records Jesus as saying he would not change the law 'by a jot or a tittle'(Matthew 5;18) nor did he. But  Paul did. It was he who abolished the ritual commandments, such as circumcision, and allowed gentiles to join. The new sect was very popular with the marginalised of society, especially slaves and women. It grew quickly.

The Religion called Christianity should perhaps be more correctly called 'Paulism'

To answer the question: I'm pretty confident that the man,  the devout rabbi, Yeshua/Jesus  probably lived as he taught. However, because we know nothing about this man ,we don't  really know how he acted.

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((9)))))))))))))))))))))))))))

*Matthew 5:18 "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."



References;"Misquoting Jesus" Bart Ehrlman, 'Paul; The Mind Of The Apostle' A N Wilson.

You know that when you quote the christian text, you are talking about things written a century or two after the alleged apostles' deaths, right?
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: Did Jesus practice what he preached?
« Reply #41 on: August 08, 2019, 02:01:23 PM »
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You know that when you quote the christian text, you are talking about things written a century or two after the alleged apostles' deaths, right?

Correct the first semi-complete copies are dated 200 CE, plus-minus 50 years.
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: Did Jesus practice what he preached?
« Reply #42 on: August 08, 2019, 02:04:06 PM »
And no one has the slightest idea who wrote any of the NT, it's completely anonymous.
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"An experiment is a question which science poses to Nature, and a measurement is the recording of Nature's answer."
Max Planck, Scientific Autobiography and Other Papers (1949)

Offline Baruch

Re: Did Jesus practice what he preached?
« Reply #43 on: August 08, 2019, 02:25:40 PM »
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And no one has the slightest idea who wrote any of the NT, it's completely anonymous.

Correct.  Spin agents added the names at the tops of the books, years later.  All old copies are missing the authorship.  While it is plausible that Paul wrote much of the Pauline letters, by style analysis, that doesn't mean that Paul ever existed either.  Paul mentions himself, but that isn't disproof of hoax.  This is why relying on historical evidence for religion is shaky.
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: Did Jesus practice what he preached?
« Reply #44 on: August 11, 2019, 12:45:36 PM »
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And no one has the slightest idea who wrote any of the NT, it's completely anonymous.
This is true for the Gospels and Acts (same author as Luke), but some of the Epistles are likely from Paul. Of course we know nothing about Paul other than from his letters.

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« Last Edit: August 11, 2019, 12:47:12 PM by aileron »
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room! -- President Merkin Muffley

My mom was a religious fundamentalist. Plus, she didn't have a mouth. It's an unusual combination. -- Bender Bending Rodriguez

 

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