Author Topic: Could "the real god" convert you?  (Read 1672 times)

Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2019, 01:26:28 PM »
Given how easily people can be fooled into believing a miracle has occurred, such as with stage magic, etc., it's hard to see how I'd be convinced into believing I'd been contacted by a real God. I suppose if some impossibility occurred on a large enough scale, such that no human could possibly be causing it, nor even an extraterrestrial entity of any sort, then I might be persuaded that a God has actually contacted me. But why would I be worth the trouble to such a vast being? Little old pea-pickin' me?
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"An experiment is a question which science poses to Nature, and a measurement is the recording of Nature's answer."
Max Planck, Scientific Autobiography and Other Papers (1949)

Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2019, 02:17:49 PM »
If God were to show himself to exist, I'd become a misotheist. I would not worship him, especially if it were the Christian god. I've spent enough time trying to build a one-sided relationship with God, only for him to remain completely silent and unhelpful. If he suddenly came down to show himself, at best, he'd be like an absent father showing up at my doorstep. I'd be like, "Go fuck off back to where you came from."

(To be clear, my real father was not absent.)
« Last Edit: June 24, 2019, 02:55:10 PM by Blackleaf »
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville

Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2019, 03:42:44 PM »
There are many "ifs" and caveats to the OP question, but I would assume, that any god worthy of the "god" job description, would be able to convince me that he/she/it/they exist.

But, by the same token, a very advance alien culture would also be able to convince me that it is a god.

How would  I go about telling the difference?

As far as I can tell, if I thought a god communicated with me, it would be substantially more rational to believe it was an advanced alien culture fucking with me, rather than an actual god. After all, we know: life can arise on at least one planet (Earth), that there are trillions of sun like stars in the universe (20 billion in the Milky Way alone), there are an uncountable number of earth like planets, the building blocks of life are plentiful in the universe.

So, there is a greater chance that an alien race is responsible, than an actual god.

And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence - Russell

Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2019, 05:27:50 PM »
Real god... Nope, I'm not buying...

Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2019, 09:32:07 AM »
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Given how easily people can be fooled into believing a miracle has occurred, such as with stage magic, etc., it's hard to see how I'd be convinced into believing I'd been contacted by a real God.

Based on what you and others have said as well as my own thoughts on the issue of knowing a "real god" when we see her, him, it, or them, it appears that identifying a god and distinguishing a real god from other entities is a problem that cannot be solved. As far as I know no Christian apologist has addressed the issue of identifying the Christian god although many Christians will tell you that any manifestation of God must be in accord with their interpretation of the Bible. In other words, if you see anything claiming to be God yet that contradicts the Bible, then it's not really God! This approach assumes that the Bible god is the real god, of course, and if the Bible god isn't the real god, then many Christians would defy a real god.

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I suppose if some impossibility occurred on a large enough scale, such that no human could possibly be causing it, nor even an extraterrestrial entity of any sort, then I might be persuaded that a God has actually contacted me.

If a real god could spell out "Jesus is Lord" in the stars, then I might at the very least consider belief.

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But why would I be worth the trouble to such a vast being? Little old pea-pickin' me?

A "vast being" might show some concern for us people. If that being did show concern for us, however, I'd expect it to do better than it is apparently doing.

Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2019, 09:38:08 AM »
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If God were to show himself to exist, I'd become a misotheist. I would not worship him, especially if it were the Christian god. I've spent enough time trying to build a one-sided relationship with God, only for him to remain completely silent and unhelpful. If he suddenly came down to show himself, at best, he'd be like an absent father showing up at my doorstep. I'd be like, "Go fuck off back to where you came from."

(To be clear, my real father was not absent.)

It sounds like you're describing a "prodigal god." If a real god exists, he seems reluctant to "come home" to us and has only bothered to tell some people long ago what he wants us to know. He doesn't seem to realize that we have been confused by his sacred scriptures and that we are unable to tell his word from the word of people.

Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2019, 09:58:40 AM »
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There are many "ifs" and caveats to the OP question, but I would assume, that any god worthy of the "god" job description, would be able to convince me that he/she/it/they exist.

I think you're right: among other things, a real god should be convincing. A good example of doubting an apparent god even if it's encountered is that of Captain Kirk in Star Trek V meeting what is supposed to be God. Kirk becomes incredulous when "God" doesn't know who Kirk is! Kirk asks: "You mean you don't know? Aren't you God?"

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But, by the same token, a very advance alien culture would also be able to convince me that it is a god.

How would  I go about telling the difference?

I don't know of any way you could tell the difference between a real god and aliens. If we assume that the Christian god is real, then he would differ from aliens in that he is the creator while they are the created, and he is all-powerful while they are merely powerful. However, I don't know of any way to know if something created the cosmos or is all-powerful.

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As far as I can tell, if I thought a god communicated with me, it would be substantially more rational to believe it was an advanced alien culture fucking with me, rather than an actual god.

I agree that intelligent ETs more probably exist than a god. So it's reasonable to go with what is more probable: ETs are more likely responsible for magic than a god if magic is real.


Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2019, 10:01:04 AM »
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Real god... Nope, I'm not buying...

Come now; Christian apologists will accuse you of having a "bias against the supernatural." They apparently are not able to convince anybody with such a bias.

Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2019, 11:54:48 AM »
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Come now; Christian apologists will accuse you of having a "bias against the supernatural." They apparently are not able to convince anybody with such a bias.

Guilty as charged... the supernatural is notorious for its lack of evidence.

Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
« Reply #39 on: June 26, 2019, 12:40:44 PM »
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Guilty as charged... the supernatural is notorious for its lack of evidence.

That's fine. Contrary to what apologists like to charge, I see nothing wrong with having a bias against the supernatural. If apologists cannot overcome skepticism, then whining about it probably won't do them much good.

Offline Baruch

Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2019, 03:37:23 PM »
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There are many "ifs" and caveats to the OP question, but I would assume, that any god worthy of the "god" job description, would be able to convince me that he/she/it/they exist.

But, by the same token, a very advance alien culture would also be able to convince me that it is a god.

How would  I go about telling the difference?

As far as I can tell, if I thought a god communicated with me, it would be substantially more rational to believe it was an advanced alien culture fucking with me, rather than an actual god. After all, we know: life can arise on at least one planet (Earth), that there are trillions of sun like stars in the universe (20 billion in the Milky Way alone), there are an uncountable number of earth like planets, the building blocks of life are plentiful in the universe.

So, there is a greater chance that an alien race is responsible, than an actual god.

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But Alien Apollo .. only if he is stronger than Capt Kirk.
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline aitm

Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2019, 04:08:10 PM »
huh, I don't recall that episode....
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Offline aitm

Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
« Reply #42 on: June 26, 2019, 04:10:14 PM »
But hey...at least in Malachi, I will be corrected by the resident expert if wrong, old god offers the grand reward of a large flock of rams. Ahhh. good ole up-wit-it god.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Offline Baruch

Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
« Reply #43 on: June 26, 2019, 04:52:42 PM »
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That's fine. Contrary to what apologists like to charge, I see nothing wrong with having a bias against the supernatural. If apologists cannot overcome skepticism, then whining about it probably won't do them much good.

Skepticism is good, but are you skeptical about skepticism?  If not, you will be nihilist.

The supernatural, as usually defined ... doesn't happen except in fiction.  Everything is natural, by materialist definition.  There are other definitions.  But rhetorically we tend toward only accepting one definition for a word, that conveniently matches the one we want to use.

I don't accept any supernatural events (as defined above) in any scripture or other writing or verbal claim of living people.  Same reason why I don't accept any claims of UFOs ... in spite of recent hype from the US Navy.  Until you have one land on the White House lawn, I doubt it.  Usually claims of UFOs imply super-physics that runs contrary to known physics.  Super-physics is the love of sci-fi.  But new physics doesn't contradict old physics, it adapts old physics to new circumstances, and we continue to use old physics for common purpose.  We had conservation of energy and conservation of mass.  Turns out that in very special conditions (nuclear reactions) those are both violated, but the combined conservation of mass-energy is not.  The new physics of Special Relativity, didn't result in warp drive or a free lunch.  Sorry, if it directly contradicts, under conventional conditions, what we already know from conventional physics ... then it is science fantasy, not science fiction.  Jules Verne worked in science fiction, not science fantasy, and even he got things wrong at times (giant cannon to send people to the Moon).  Mostly today we have science fantasy, that is as fictional as the Bible.  Serves the same purpose for modern people, as Bibie stories served ancient Jewish people.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2019, 05:03:07 PM by Baruch »
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Baruch

Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
« Reply #44 on: June 26, 2019, 04:53:43 PM »
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huh, I don't recall that episode....

Too much recreational ... ?  We watched Star Trek and Time Tunnel religiously ;-)
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

 

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