Author Topic: Quest for Truth  (Read 6045 times)

Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #675 on: August 13, 2019, 06:05:31 PM »
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I feel like I already explained this to you, using the 100 million euro suitcase example.
Did I lose you somewhere along the line?
Well, if you aren't opposed to the idea of say 100 million euro in a suitcase, and someone tells you there's a suitcase with a 100 million euro sitting on that bench over there, what would stop you or any reasonable person from walking over and opening it to find out?

Deus summus
« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 06:14:20 PM by Absolute_Agent »

Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #676 on: August 13, 2019, 06:10:54 PM »
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You already asked me that, and I said no. Apparently the Qur'an can't be translated from the Arabic, and I don't read Arabic.
But you clearly formed an opinion about it without knowing what's in it.  That suggests an irrational response.

Deus summus


Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #677 on: August 13, 2019, 06:17:08 PM »
Yep, totally irrational.
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"The Christian resolution to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad.”
Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline Mr.Obvious

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Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #678 on: August 13, 2019, 06:56:31 PM »
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Well, if you aren't opposed to the idea of say 100 million euro in a suitcase, and someone tells you there's a suitcase with a 100 million euro sitting on that bench over there, what would stop you or any reasonable person from walking over and opening it to find out?

Deus summus

Did you even read my original example? It seems like you missed a bit. Or just read what you wanted to read.
I could try again, but you can just go look it up. It's on page 43 of this thread, though you also quoted it in full on page 44.
Given that like me, you see 15 replies per page. It's reply 641.
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, requesting 69 last night.

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Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #679 on: August 13, 2019, 07:26:49 PM »
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Well, if you aren't opposed to the idea of say 100 million euro in a suitcase, and someone tells you there's a suitcase with a 100 million euro sitting on that bench over there, what would stop you or any reasonable person from walking over and opening it to find out?

Deus summus


Because there might be bomb. Anyone who accept your proposal would have to be dumb, naive and gullible. But con artist like you are counting that people ARE dumb, naive and gullible.
“Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool.” - Mark Twain

Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #680 on: August 13, 2019, 08:13:20 PM »
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Much of it is corroborated by archeological evidence and older texts. Also the Qur'an corroborates the Bible, and is full of scientific information that wasn't discovered until the modern era.

Deus summus
What about the bible has been supported by archaeological evidence? 

Let me see if I have this correct.  You accept that a piece of fiction (quran) can corroborate another piece of fiction (bible) and then, like magic, both are accurate?  But you do believe in space spooks, so I don't find that so far fetched for you.   
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #681 on: August 13, 2019, 08:21:58 PM »
Well, hell yeah, haven't you ever seen Space Ghost?




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"The Christian resolution to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad.”
Friedrich Nietzsche

Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #682 on: August 13, 2019, 08:49:47 PM »
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What about the bible has been supported by archaeological evidence?   

You have to understand biblical predictions, aka prophesies. The Bible doesn't make mathematical predictions like science. For example, if the Bible mentions Egypt and there is such a place as Egypt, prophesy fulfilled!
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room! -- President Merkin Muffley

My mom was a religious fundamentalist. Plus, she didn't have a mouth. It's an unusual combination. -- Bender Bending Rodriguez

Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #683 on: August 13, 2019, 11:20:23 PM »
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You have to understand biblical predictions, aka prophesies. The Bible doesn't make mathematical predictions like science. For example, if the Bible mentions Egypt and there is such a place as Egypt, prophesy fulfilled!
Yeah, I'm aware of that.  I left the question almost open-ended to see where he'd take it.  Places and some people mentioned in the bible are real.  But that is a far cry proving the accuracy of the bible.  After all,  the Paul Bunyan stories are placed in real places and some of the people may be real; that does not keep the stories from being anything other than fiction.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Baruch

Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #684 on: August 13, 2019, 11:34:56 PM »
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You have to understand biblical predictions, aka prophesies. The Bible doesn't make mathematical predictions like science. For example, if the Bible mentions Egypt and there is such a place as Egypt, prophesy fulfilled!

In times past, there were no secular history books.  Your history was the story of your tribe, and the story of your tribe centered around your religion.  This was true of the first secular history.  Herodotus, as repurposed by he 18th century Enlightenment.  Everyone before that, understood, that Herodotus was a Greek pagan, not an atheist.  What made Greece special wasn't atheism, but that myth had been set aside.  Socrates always claimed he was highly religious, not an atheist.  He wasn't accused of atheism, but of worshipping new gods (without authorization).
« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 11:38:11 PM by Baruch »
𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎌𐎀𐎍𐎎𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀𐎟𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎁𐎀𐎍𐎉𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Baruch

Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #685 on: August 13, 2019, 11:39:22 PM »
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I don't believe in Santa Claus, but that doesn't mean I'm anti-Santa Claus.

But are you pro-communist agitation among the elves for better work conditions?
𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎌𐎀𐎍𐎎𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀𐎟𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎁𐎀𐎍𐎉𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline aitm

Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #686 on: August 14, 2019, 09:14:40 AM »
The babble is a mythological fairy tale. All you have to do is read it. You don't need geology or archaeology, nor physics or math.  All that is required to tell it is a mythological fairy tale is reading comprehension. That' it. While on the other side, the fooled scratch and claw, twist them selves into pretzels using any fallen piece of scrap from the annals of science to proclaim, "AHA!" The truth of course they have found nothing, but a piece of scrap from science that doesn't even relate but off they go....now they delve into mysticism because real science just laughs at them.

When we encounter such obviously fooled we should just ignore them, for discussing science with them regarding a mythological fairy tale only emboldens them into thinking they have right to use science to prove something disproved by simply reading it.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #687 on: August 14, 2019, 09:37:23 AM »


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Did you even read my original example? It seems like you missed a bit. Or just read what you wanted to read.
I could try again, but you can just go look it up. It's on page 43 of this thread, though you also quoted it in full on page 44.
Given that like me, you see 15 replies per page. It's reply 641.
I re-read your post and allow me to rephrase my previous response to clear things up.  First I'll quote you:

"I'm open to finding the suitcase, but people never can quite tell or agree on where it will be exactly, nor what color or shape it is, nor the kind of bills are in it. It doesn't seem likely that it exists, therefore. So I won't get into debt just yet, under the probably false assumption that I'll be ablo to pay back my loans tomorrow. Still: show me the money! Enrich my life."

Now the only thing holding you back from being a theist is that there seems to be a lot of disagreement among religions and sects of those religions about exactly how to get the good stuff.  Secondly you don't want to make a risky investment. 

So, using your hypothetical example, I come along and tell you I've spent my life digging through all these suitcases and I've found the genuine article.  Only difference is, it's no 100 million euros.  It's 8,000 cubic metres of solid gold.  Then I tell you it's free for the asking.  Then I tell you you already own it, you just need to claim it.  No payment due.  Then I say, do you wish to retain your claim, or defer it?  It's that simple.  "Why not just hand it to me?" You say.  We there's a lot of legal red tape and you can't take possession until you legally acknowledge ownership, being as your grandfather had retained it in custody and died while you were still too young to assume responsibility for such mind boggling wealth.  Otherwise it will continue to remain in your grandfather's estate.  Then you say, "That's rubbish." And I say no problem, it will be available if and when you should choose to claim it in the future.

Capisce?

Deus summus


Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #688 on: August 14, 2019, 09:47:44 AM »
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I re-read your post and allow me to rephrase my previous response to clear things up.  First I'll quote you:

"I'm open to finding the suitcase, but people never can quite tell or agree on where it will be exactly, nor what color or shape it is, nor the kind of bills are in it. It doesn't seem likely that it exists, therefore. So I won't get into debt just yet, under the probably false assumption that I'll be ablo to pay back my loans tomorrow. Still: show me the money! Enrich my life."

Now the only thing holding you back from being a theist is that there seems to be a lot of disagreement among religions and sects of those religions about exactly how to get the good stuff.  Secondly you don't want to make a risky investment. 

So, using your hypothetical example, I come along and tell you I've spent my life digging through all these suitcases and I've found the genuine article.  Only difference is, it's no 100 million euros.  It's 8,000 cubic metres of solid gold.  Then I tell you it's free for the asking.  Then I tell you you already own it, you just need to claim it.  No payment due.  Then I say, do you wish to retain your claim, or defer it?  It's that simple.  "Why not just hand it to me?" You say.  We there's a lot of legal red tape and you can't take possession until you legally acknowledge ownership, being as your grandfather had retained it in custody and died while you were still too young to assume responsibility for such mind boggling wealth.  Otherwise it will continue to remain in your grandfather's estate.  Then you say, "That's rubbish." And I say no problem, it will be available if and when you should choose to claim it in the future.

Capisce?

Deus summus



You're peddling nonsense, hence we have no trust in you. Get it. (read my signature)

“Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool.” - Mark Twain

Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #689 on: August 14, 2019, 10:05:28 AM »
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In times past, there were no secular history books.  Your history was the story of your tribe, and the story of your tribe centered around your religion.  This was true of the first secular history.  Herodotus, as repurposed by he 18th century Enlightenment.  Everyone before that, understood, that Herodotus was a Greek pagan, not an atheist.  What made Greece special wasn't atheism, but that myth had been set aside.  Socrates always claimed he was highly religious, not an atheist.  He wasn't accused of atheism, but of worshipping new gods (without authorization).

I believe elsewhere I read you're Jewish. Until recently almost all my co-workers were New York or Israeli Jews - culturally Jewish at least since very few of them believed in God and there's some dispute about whether or not an atheist/agnostic is really Jewish. They used to joke that they hired me on the diversity plan.

Point is, I'd rather be around a bunch of Jews than a bunch of Christians. At least the Jews who believe in God weren't trying to save my soul from hell. Boy, is that ever fun let me tell you.

Anywho... There was a time not too long ago that the non-miraculous parts of the Bible were assumed to be of historical value by archeologists and historians, but that's no longer the case. The best evidence we have is that the Exodus never happened. People cry the usual objection, "lack of evidence is not evidence of lack", but there are at least two problems with that. First, qualified people searching hard for something and not finding it most certainly is evidence of lack -- people need to learn the difference between evidence and proof. Archeologists can trace movements of much smaller groups such as the Trail of Tears or Lewis and Clark to name a few recent ones. Yet using the same tools and techniques they find nothing to support a mass migration described in Exodus. Another problem is it's not just what they're not finding, it's also what they're finding. They found that the Egyptian army routinely patrolled the areas described in the migration and resettlement. It's as if the writers claimed they escaped from the President of the United States by migrating from Pennsylvania to New York.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room! -- President Merkin Muffley

My mom was a religious fundamentalist. Plus, she didn't have a mouth. It's an unusual combination. -- Bender Bending Rodriguez

 

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