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Quest for Truth

Started by Absolute_Agent, June 16, 2019, 09:02:36 PM

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Mike Cl

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on August 09, 2019, 02:30:17 PM
During all this time of searching and trying to believe, did you ever pray?  If so what was the nature of your prayers?

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Yes, I prayed.  And I prayed from my own personal 'closet'.  And I prayed for illumination; for understanding. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Absolute_Agent

Quote from: Mike Cl on August 09, 2019, 03:43:49 PM
Yes, I prayed.  And I prayed from my own personal 'closet'.  And I prayed for illumination; for understanding.
Forgive me if I'm probing, but understanding of what?

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Mike Cl

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on August 09, 2019, 04:01:54 PM
Forgive me if I'm probing, but understanding of what?

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Probing is fine.  Understanding of myself.  Understanding of how to proceed--what would be appropriate thoughts and actions; thoughts and actions that would be positive for others and myself.  Asking for some sort of signal that there is indeed god; and what does that mean?

When you pray, what do you pray for?
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

josephpalazzo

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on August 09, 2019, 02:33:38 PM
Since God is in part defined as the Creator of the universe, then the universe must be evidence of God. It cannot logically be asserted that the universe is not evidence.

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Just because you define God as creator of the universe does not prove the existence of God. The universe could as well exist without a creator. If you argue that if something exists, it must have a creator, then who created God? If you answer no one, God is eternal, likewise, I can say no one created the universe, the universe is eternal.

Baruch

#529
Quote from: josephpalazzo on August 09, 2019, 12:07:02 PM
That comment was to make you realize that there are things that exist independently of your thoughts, as you seem to confuse between what is evidence (punching is a hard fact) and what is idea (a fleeting moment in your mind). Can you follow the conversation, instead of scattering all over with needless posts or is this way over your head?

Ok for you to worship Plato.  But are you in the Cave, or outside? ;-)  I multitask, and kibitz.  Sorry that is confusing for you.  That is precisely why I have evolved the practice of posting most miscellaneous "ignored" news under a common string.  That makes it easier to ignore or follow.  I am very active, and most posts are short.  You are not my Daddy.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: Unbeliever on August 09, 2019, 01:35:54 PM
So you agree with Vizzini, in The Princess Bride, that Plato was a moron, along with Socrates and Aristotle?


:-P

Yes.  Socrates was a guilty pedophile and psychopath.  Plato was a rich counter-revolutionary against democracy.  Aristotle was a suck up to Macedonian monarchy.  But really, post facto, Aristotle is more impressive than Plato.  Aristotle was right to leave the Academy, when Plato insisted on nepotism.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on August 09, 2019, 12:11:31 PM
One might say he needs some sense knocked into him.
But that might create more confusion :p

Belgians have two main languages ... call the kettle black?
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: Unbeliever on August 09, 2019, 01:51:04 PM
Here's an example that may help clarify that:

I don't have a belief that there are any extraterrestrial civilizations in our galaxy. But, since there could physically and logically be one or more of them in our galaxy, I don't have a belief that there are none. I just don't know which is the case, so I can have no belief either way. I could assume one or the other, and choose to believe, but that belief or non-belief would have no basis in fact, and would tell me nothing about the real world, only about myself and my preferences.

Go to the Area 51 meet up, and one might increase or decrease your election popularity.  That is so unfair!
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

josephpalazzo

Quote from: Baruch on August 09, 2019, 05:10:10 PM
Ok for you to worship Plato.  But are you in the Cave, or outside?

Plato is dead, so let him rest in peace. And the matrix (movie) is just a rehash of Plato's cave. Plato is non-start for me. The world is real. Period. Anything outside the real world would need tangible, verifiable evidence, otherwise it's just fiction. As to ideas/concepts/symbols these are products of brain activity. We don't understand entirely how this functions, some we do, but the day will come when we will know more and more. But any new discovery will only amplify that what you see is what you get.

As I said in another post: trust must be earned.  So I don't think I will indulge into your kibitz. It's infantile, incoherent, contradictory, irrelevant, and smacks of desperation. Most likely I will ignore your posts - no worth the effort.

Baruch

Yes, no love.  But then you aren't the goddess of Love.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Absolute_Agent



Quote from: Mike Cl on August 09, 2019, 04:08:40 PM
Probing is fine.  Understanding of myself.  Understanding of how to proceed--what would be appropriate thoughts and actions; thoughts and actions that would be positive for others and myself.  Asking for some sort of signal that there is indeed god; and what does that mean?

When you pray, what do you pray for?

I pray two kinds of prayer, formal ritual prayer and informal personal prayer.  In the ritual prayer I say:

"In the name of God, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

"All grateful praise be to the Lord of the worlds, the Beneficent, the Merciful-

"Master of the day of Judgement.

"Thee alone we worship and Thee alone we ask for help.

"Guide us in the straight way, the way of those who earn Thy favor-

"Not of those who earn Thine anger, nor of those who go astray.

Amen."

In personal prayer I ask that He will cause me to be a good person.  I ask to be purified of evil, of wickedness, of rebelliousness and pride.  I ask that I may be counted among the believers and the righteous.

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Sal1981

Just repeating a mantra does nothing in my opinion.

Asking for change in yourself does nothing. Actually enacting change in oneself is a lot more trickier.

Mike Cl

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on August 09, 2019, 08:08:09 PM

I pray two kinds of prayer, formal ritual prayer and informal personal prayer.  In the ritual prayer I say:

"In the name of God, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

"All grateful praise be to the Lord of the worlds, the Beneficent, the Merciful-

"Master of the day of Judgement.

"Thee alone we worship and Thee alone we ask for help.

"Guide us in the straight way, the way of those who earn Thy favor-

"Not of those who earn Thine anger, nor of those who go astray.

Amen."

In personal prayer I ask that He will cause me to be a good person.  I ask to be purified of evil, of wickedness, of rebelliousness and pride.  I ask that I may be counted among the believers and the righteous.

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If I were to pray your formal prayer, any god would be able to tell I was not being truthful, because I don't think any of that is correct.  That would be a totally dishonest thing for me to do.  Plus, I think it would as fruitful as praying to Thor or Paul Bunyan--they/god do not exist.

I tried your personal prayer (or many very close to it) for many years.  I simply did not notice any difference; now that I'm atheist it simply seems silly and non-productive.  However, I do sort of say a prayer to myself from time to time, for I do aspire to be a good person and not to harm anyone (or animals) without cause.  My personal motto, so to speak, is 'first do no harm.' and I take that inside and mull it over, from time to time, to figure out what it means and how it should govern my actions and thoughts.  But this is all inside work with no god anticipated nor expected.  After all, I do have to live with myself.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Baruch

Quote from: Sal1981 on August 09, 2019, 08:26:34 PM
Just repeating a mantra does nothing in my opinion.

Asking for change in yourself does nothing. Actually enacting change in oneself is a lot more trickier.

Depends in receptivity, same as any other auto-hypnosis or NLP or meditation.  If you aren't receptive, or aren't prepped, then it won't do anything.  Essentially it is a verbal trigger of these techniques, as in ancient India.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

#539
Quote from: Mike Cl on August 09, 2019, 09:07:30 PM
If I were to pray your formal prayer, any god would be able to tell I was not being truthful, because I don't think any of that is correct.  That would be a totally dishonest thing for me to do.  Plus, I think it would as fruitful as praying to Thor or Paul Bunyan--they/god do not exist.

I tried your personal prayer (or many very close to it) for many years.  I simply did not notice any difference; now that I'm atheist it simply seems silly and non-productive.  However, I do sort of say a prayer to myself from time to time, for I do aspire to be a good person and not to harm anyone (or animals) without cause.  My personal motto, so to speak, is 'first do no harm.' and I take that inside and mull it over, from time to time, to figure out what it means and how it should govern my actions and thoughts.  But this is all inside work with no god anticipated nor expected.  After all, I do have to live with myself.

Again, real prayer is triggering prior auto-hypnosis (aka how you learned your culture over time).  Works on people who share the same culture.  Works on yourself.  Aka group or self hypnosis.  The prayer is more like an induction, not like a trigger for prior mental conditioning (that would be a mantra).  A trigger just has to be known to the receiver, it doesn't have to be indelible language ... same as a military code word.

If you aren't prepped, then it won't do anything.  And a fair percentage are induction resistant (10-15%).  This is "magic" as in "abracadabra", designed to modify people's mental state.  That changes their perception of what they see,  not the raw sensation.  This is why people of Catholic culture, who are committed Catholics .... are moved by Catholic liturgy and prayer.  But a Muslim in the same room is not.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.