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Quest for Truth

Started by Absolute_Agent, June 16, 2019, 09:02:36 PM

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Baruch

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on August 09, 2019, 11:06:58 AM
You have the same evidence available to you as I do.  The only difference is in how much of it you use, and how you interpret it.

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Qualia -> Raw Sensation -> Processed Sensation -> Cognitive Processing

Humans don't have empirical access to Qualia, only to Raw Sensation (thru science).  Same for Processed Sensation aka Gestalt.  The world of ideas is on this side of Cognitive Processing.  This is where per the ancient Buddhist parable, where you distinguish between a rope and a snake (in a dim room).  What an adult experiences, in vision for example, is a movie theater screen VR at the back of your brain.  It is a very good system, but is in fact artificial, it isn't Qualia.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

josephpalazzo

Quote from: Baruch on August 09, 2019, 11:20:24 AM
I feel triggered ... will be contacting my local college LBGT support group ;-)

Ok, Baruch, if you want a decent conversation with me, you need to stop this nonsense. Otherwise you're going back to ignore status.

Baruch

Quote from: josephpalazzo on August 09, 2019, 11:25:48 AM
Ok, Baruch, if you want a decent conversation with me, you need to stop this nonsense. Otherwise you're going back to ignore status.

You alluded to violence (hitting in the face).  Our younger members might object.  I didn't take it personally.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

josephpalazzo

Quote from: Baruch on August 09, 2019, 11:33:31 AM
You alluded to violence (hitting in the face).  Our younger members might object.  I didn't take it personally.

That comment was to make you realize that there are things that exist independently of your thoughts, as you seem to confuse between what is evidence (punching is a hard fact) and what is idea (a fleeting moment in your mind). Can you follow the conversation, instead of scattering all over with needless posts or is this way over your head?

Mr.Obvious

Quote from: josephpalazzo on August 09, 2019, 12:07:02 PM
That comment was to make you realize that there are things that exist independently of your thoughts, as you seem to confuse between what is evidence (punching is a hard fact) and what is idea (a fleeting moment in your mind). Can you follow the conversation, instead of scattering all over with needless posts or is this way over your head?

One might say he needs some sense knocked into him.
But that might create more confusion :p
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

Mike Cl

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on August 09, 2019, 10:49:39 AM
Thanks for that explanation. I would like to dissect your ideas further.Don't you assume there is no God(s)?  That is your position correct? Or do you "know" there is no God(s)?Do you actually know this?
Me--No I do not 'assume' there is not god.  I was raised in an agnostic environment and don't remember thinking much about god one way or another until the 5th grade when we moved to Alabama.  Then I attended several churches; my mom took us but did not venture an opinion about god nor Jesus.  At that time I assumed there was a god because nobody I knew questioned it.  I did not really seriously think about it one way or the other until college.  Then I began a casual search for god (or not god).  And only in my mid 40's did I become serious.  After my divorce I wanted some personal answers about life and a spiritual life.  When I met my second wife to be (she is a recovering Catholic) we were both in an active searching mode, so we joined (after scouting around) Unity church.  I tried with all my might to find god and Jesus in this time frame (about 10 yrs).  I wanted to believe but I wanted some sort of proof even if it were just personal proof.  I kept saying that I had found that proof of my Christ consciousness but when put to the test, there was no proof, not even personal.  Eventually I realized I had a huge case of wishful thinking, for there was no proof of either god nor Jesus.  I read all angles from the deepest fundamentalist to the most aggressive anti-theist--and everything in between--material.  No god--no real Jesus. I still do not assume there is no god, for if proof emerged, I'd become the best believer you ever saw.  Even though there has been no evidence put forth, I do not assume there is no god.  I don't think (notice I did not say I don't believe....) there is a god(s) and I don't think Jesus ever existed.  But my mind is not closed; I'm still curious. 


Let's imagine for a second that tonight the sun enters a wormhole that hadn't been detected in our current sector of our Galaxy.  The Earth is left spinning alone and starts drifting away into deep space.  You wake up to no sun.  Yet you "knew" it would rise the previous night.  Wasn't that "knowledge" an assumption based on past experience, or the experiences of others?So the fact you have no evidence of something is proof that it doesn't exist.  Is that what you mean?
Me--Notice how I use the words 'think' and 'believe'.  Believe needs no proof.  Think relies on established fact; but it is not a locked 'knowing', for if new evidence is presented, I re-think what I 'knew'.  I don't believe the sun will rise, I think it will.  Why?  It has done so for millions/billions of years and will do so for another 5 billion.  But if some evidence is produced to show that that is not the case, then I will re-think it.  This is an important point, for me: You say--"So the fact you have no evidence of something is proof that it doesn't exist.  Is that what you mean?" No.  I have not been presented any (and I mean 'any') evidence any god(s) exist.  None--nadda.  That seems quite odd to, so constitutes a sliver of proof of no existence.  Since most consider god to the Creator, there must be some proof in his creation.  When compared to his 'scripture' (whatever that is for you or others) I see his creation, or nature, to be devoid of any examples of his teachings.  I see the opposite.  That constitutes, for me, a little bit of proof that any god(s) exist or existed.  I add all those bits of proof that no god(s) exist and I accept that as more proof against and none for.  So, for now, I accept that as proof god(s) don't exist.  It works for me--but if some evidence were to be presented that a god existed, I reevaluate my thinking.


Yes, initially they came for freedom to practice THEIR religion, not for everyone to have freedom.  Yet by the time the Constitution was drafted it was becoming obvious this mentality was no longer tenable.  The original states were theocracies which eventually morphed into secular states under the influence of the federal government.  No doubt many Christians want things to go back to the "good old days" when their religion or denomination was in charge.[emoji849]This is what I consider a secular ideology.Agreed
Me--Of the 100 or so on the Mayflower, only 40% were Separatists who had to sell passage to the non-religious to raise enough to sail to the New World.  Religion was a big part of the reason the Mayflower sailed, but economics was even bigger.  And even the Separatists were not really about religious freedom; just the ability to practice their own brand of it, which was the only 'real' religion there was.  The constitution, as it emerged (there was a lot of fighting about it), does not mention god.  I think most of the framers realized how destructive any organized religion was.  Secular ideology?  Yeah, I can go along with that term.   



.Didn't know that.  If atheists are prohibited by state law from holding public office this violates the Constitution and should be challenged.Islam guarantees freedom of religion.   This has no doubt been misunderstood by many including some Muslims.  However if you look at UAE there is an example of an Islamic nation that protects freedom of religion.
Me--Curious, is there any Muslim state/country that allows atheists on any level???

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Absolute_Agent

#516
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on August 09, 2019, 10:15:10 AM
Yes of course I would
What a snarky fellow [emoji57].  Thanks for that explanation.  If you're an agnostic atheist I'm a gnostic theist.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on August 09, 2019, 10:15:10 AMyours are completely wrong. Or at least, two out of three. To an extent, that leads into your seeming inability to understand that fully secularized countries are atheist, and other countries under communist regime that criminalize theism are antitheistic ON TOP of being atheist.
I do understand your definition.  However I don't agree.  An atheist country must take an official stance that there is no God(s), whether that equates to anti-theism or not.  A secular country takes NO position.  It does not hold there is God(s), nor does it hold there is no God(s).
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on August 09, 2019, 10:15:10 AM1. Atheists do not believe there to be one or multiple gods. (notice the difference with what you put forth)
Of course I noticed.  Now can you elaborate logically on the material or functional difference between "not believing there is God(s)", and "believing there is no God(s)?"
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on August 09, 2019, 10:15:10 AM
Agnosticism and gnosticism are two answers to a different question, however. Whether one can know something with absolute certainty or not.
This points to the science of epistemology.  How can you really know anything?  Isn't all knowledge a belief that seems to be confirmed by experience?  This is where I would make a distinction between absolute knowledge, which no one has but God, and relative knowledge, having degrees of certainty. Belief is an assumption that initiates the process of knowing.  There can be no knowledge without belief because we all have to start somewhere.  We have to assume, to believe things are a certain way, in order to act.  You have to believe your car will get you safely to work before you get in and drive.  But you can't know absolutely that the engine won't cut off  on the interstate.  However you can increase your certainty by doing oil changes regular check ups and maintenance.

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josephpalazzo

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on August 09, 2019, 11:06:58 AM
You have the same evidence available to you as I do.  The only difference is in how much of it you use, and how you interpret it.

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Well so far you haven't pointed to any evidence pertaining to the existence of a deity. Saying the universe exists, therefore God is not evidence. That's just speculation and wishful thinking.

Unbeliever

Quote from: Baruch on August 09, 2019, 10:31:53 AM
\\

Physics is a model in a persons head (useful too).  Pythagoras/Plato was wrong.  There is no World Of Forms.  You could argue that other ideas in other people's heads, is bad.  But isn't that just prejudice?

So you agree with Vizzini, in The Princess Bride, that Plato was a moron, along with Socrates and Aristotle?


:-P
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Absolute_Agent



Quote from: Mike Cl on August 09, 2019, 12:16:54 PMMe--Curious, is there any Muslim state/country that allows atheists on any level???
There are 192 Muslim nations who are signatories of the Universal Declaration of Human rights which protects freedom of religion including the freedom to be atheist.  How it plays out in actual practice I can't speak from experience obviously.

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Unbeliever

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on August 09, 2019, 12:21:46 PM
Now can you elaborate logically on the material or functional difference between "not believing there is God(s)", and "believing there is no God(s)?"

Here's an example that may help clarify that:

I don't have a belief that there are any extraterrestrial civilizations in our galaxy. But, since there could physically and logically be one or more of them in our galaxy, I don't have a belief that there are none. I just don't know which is the case, so I can have no belief either way. I could assume one or the other, and choose to believe, but that belief or non-belief would have no basis in fact, and would tell me nothing about the real world, only about myself and my preferences.

God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Absolute_Agent

Quote from: josephpalazzo on August 09, 2019, 12:25:19 PM
Well so far you haven't pointed to any evidence pertaining to the existence of a deity. Saying the universe exists, therefore God is not evidence. That's just speculation and wishful thinking.
Examining the totality of known existence and my experience, I logically conclude there can and must be God, that there cannot logically not be God.  I accept the universe as evidence for God; it cannot rationally be rejected as evidence, since if God had not created it, He would not be God.

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josephpalazzo

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on August 09, 2019, 02:09:25 PM
... since if God had not created it, He would not be God.


That's circular reasoning.

There is no evidence that God exists, and no evidence that God created the universe. As I said: it's wishful thinking on your part. At most one can say, if you are intellectually honest, is: "Maybe there is a God." Period. Any other claim is downright dishonest.

Absolute_Agent



Quote from: Mike Cl on August 09, 2019, 12:16:54 PM
Then I began a casual search for god (or not god).  And only in my mid 40's did I become serious.  After my divorce I wanted some personal answers about life and a spiritual life.  When I met my second wife to be (she is a recovering Catholic) we were both in an active searching mode, so we joined (after scouting around) Unity church.  I tried with all my might to find god and Jesus in this time frame (about 10 yrs).  I wanted to believe but I wanted some sort of proof even if it were just personal proof.  I kept saying that I had found that proof of my Christ consciousness but when put to the test, there was no proof, not even personal. 
During all this time of searching and trying to believe, did you ever pray?  If so what was the nature of your prayers?

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Absolute_Agent

Quote from: josephpalazzo on August 09, 2019, 02:26:19 PM
That's circular reasoning.

There is no evidence that God exists, and no evidence that God created the universe. As I said: it's wishful thinking on your part. At most one can say, if you are intellectually honest, is: "Maybe there is a God." Period. Any other claim is downright dishonest.
Since God is in part defined as the Creator of the universe, then the universe must be evidence of God. It cannot logically be asserted that the universe is not evidence.

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