Quest for Truth

[josephpalazzo]

How touching, you see yourselves as victims.  "In God We Trust" is what makes America who we are.  The problem is you confuse secularism with the abolishment of religious expression.  Secularism was invented by religious people, for religious people primarily.  Atheists are welcome but as a group you are incapable of maintaining a neutral attitude towards theistic paradigms, with some rare exceptions.  Now if you want political power so much, explain to me from what standard your moral foundation for just laws is derived?  You can't because there is none.  But, now you want to run things?  All I see in atheist groups is something like a pack of housecats.  Each to his own devices.  Amusing when you are kept as pets, but catastrophic when your ideology gets the upper hand. Guess where Hitler derived his eugenics program?  Yeah, Darwinism.  Yet @MikeCI over here writes a rambling treatise on how it's such a benign principle.  Everything is benign until you try to subtract God from the equation.  Then it's mayhem. 

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Your attitude is that we are the oppressors?!? How many atheist are elected? Oh yeah, one. Sure we are running things. So be scared. 

FYI, Hitler was a devout Catholic. He even believed that he was God-given choice to rule. Secondly, Atheists are not a monolithic group. The only common thing we have is that we claim there is a lack of evidence in the existence of a deity. I suppose that must be scary for idiots like you. But politically, socially and psychologically, we are as different as night and day. We are not  organized as any of the established religion. We don't have a church/synagogue/temple to go to and behave as a group. We are all on our own. And in the past, we had to hide. You couldn't express any of your beliefs publicly, you couldn't run for office as an atheist, and at work, you couldn't be known as an atheist or otherwise you would lose your jobs.

In the last 20 years, we've made a few gains, and what you see is a threat. And that's because your belief are being questioned like never before, and you know down deep inside of you, there's nothing but speculation and wishful thinking. So in a way, you are right to think we are a threat to you. That's because your beliefs are on shaky grounds.So be scared. LOL.

[Cavebear]

How touching, you see yourselves as victims.  "In God We Trust" is what makes America who we are.  The problem is you confuse secularism with the abolishment of religious expression.  Secularism was invented by religious people, for religious people primarily.  Atheists are welcome but as a group you are incapable of maintaining a neutral attitude towards theistic paradigms, with some rare exceptions.  Now if you want political power so much, explain to me from what standard your moral foundation for just laws is derived?  You can't because there is none.  But, now you want to run things?  All I see in atheist groups is something like a pack of housecats.  Each to his own devices.  Amusing when you are kept as pets, but catastrophic when your ideology gets the upper hand. Guess where Hitler derived his eugenics program?  Yeah, Darwinism.  Yet @MikeCI over here writes a rambling treatise on how it's such a benign principle.  Everything is benign until you try to subtract God from the equation.  Then it's mayhem. 

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The US was not founded as a religious nation.  It is ruled by laws.  The preamble to the Constitution says "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.", etc.  Note that there is no mention of a religion, any deity.

"In God We Trust" was a law passed in a Joint Resolution by the 84th Congress (P.L. 84-140) and approved by President Dwight Eisenhower on July 30, 1956, that declared "In God We Trust" must appear on American currency. This phrase was first used on paper money in 1957, when it appeared on the one-dollar silver certificate.  It was a knee-jerk response to "godless communism".

Religion (in general or in specific) might be what you think the US is, but it is not what I think it is.  So it is not what makes America who WE are.  You like religion as a basis, I like laws, and laws re what rule us. 

You asked "explain to me from what standard your moral foundation for just laws is derived".  I've addressed that often.  Just laws derive from human experience in getting along together in groups.  And I will add that religious texts always follow human experience, not arise before it.  No religious idea can be shown to come before human experience with a problem.

Religion (at best) CODIFIES human experiences.  And therefore, is not derived externally from "above".

You said "Secularism was invented by religious people".  In all my life, I have never heard a sillier idea.  I would say "idiotic" and "moronic", but I'm trying to restrain myself.  To explain that, I have to hope that you understand that there were once hominids  who did not have thoughts of deities.  They ate fruits and roots and sometimes scavenged marrow from bones.  There is evidence of that.  Alright so far?

So basically, you are proposing that one day, one of these hominids suddenly woke up and said "Oh Dang, we were created by a power from above and HE says we must not do certain things that offend him like work on his sabbath day, carve statues we might thing represent HIM, and not believe in other powers we never even thought of to admire until HE just mentioned it to me today.

Do you see how silly that is?

In a practical sense, it is the concept of a deity that ruins humankind too often.  It's not which leaders commit more atrocities than others and which are theists and which are not.  Some very religious leaders killed millions and some leaders who were religious also killed millions.  Atheism is not a specific set of beliefs.  I can't recall any who specifically said "I killed them in the name of my atheistic beliefs.  One CAN, however, find many who specifically killed in the name of their religion.

For example, "The Crusaders were accompanied by an official representative of the Pope, a French Cistercian monk named Arnaud Amalric (also variously referred to as Arnald Amalric and Arnauld-Amaury).

De Montfort demanded that the leaders of Beziers turn over the town’s Cathar heretics to him. They refused. The Crusaders attacked.

According to accounts written decades later, as the attack began, a soldier asked Amalric how they would be able to tell which Beziers townspeople were Catholics and which were Cathars.

Amalric supposedly answered (in French):  “Kill them all. God will recognize his own.”

No atheist ever said THAT...

And with THAT, I leave you for now.

[Absolute_Agent]

Your attitude is that we are the oppressors?!? How many atheist are elected? Oh yeah, one. Sure we are running things. So be scared. 

FYI, Hitler was a devout Catholic. He even believed that he was God-given choice to rule. Secondly, Atheists are not a monolithic group. The only common thing we have is that we claim there is a lack of evidence in the existence of a deity. I suppose that must be scary for idiots like you. But politically, socially and psychologically, we are as different as night and day. We are not  organized as any of the established religion. We don't have a church/synagogue/temple to go to and behave as a group. We are all on our own. And in the past, we had to hide. You couldn't express any of your beliefs publicly, you couldn't run for office as an atheist, and at work, you couldn't be known as an atheist or otherwise you would lose your jobs.

In the last 20 years, we've made a few gains, and what you see is a threat. And that's because your belief are being questioned like never before, and you know down deep inside of you, there's nothing but speculation and wishful thinking. So in a way, you are right to think we are a threat to you. That's because your beliefs are on shaky grounds.So be scared. LOL.

If I was scared of having my beliefs challenged I wouldn't be on this forum would I? What I know deep down inside is Allah is the greatest.  But you are having a hard time distinguishing between me and your internal projections.

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[josephpalazzo]

What I know deep down inside is Allah is the greatest. 

As I said in an earlier post,"And at every opportunity you were pushing your religion", I am right.

But in this country, Muhammad Ali is the greatest.

[Mike Cl]

If I was scared of having my beliefs challenged I wouldn't be on this forum would I?
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That is just bullshit.  You would freely answer all questions, instead of ducking them.  You are simply a coward and liar.

[Cavebear]

If I was scared of having my beliefs challenged I wouldn't be on this forum would I? What I know deep down inside is Allah is the greatest.  But you are having a hard time distinguishing between me and your internal projections.

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You would be here if tied to wild horses trying to drag you away.  You life's purpose is to convince us atheists we are somehow stupidly wrong.  Or else you WOULDN'T be here.

I'M here because I want to talk to fellow atheists about various subjects rationally and without idiot theists like you getting in the way every damned post!  If I wanted to argue and annoy people like you, I would go to theistic sites.  I don't.

I love cats (for example).  And I specifically do not like dogs (I have reasons).  But that doesn't mean I go to dog discussion boards and tell them how much better cats are than dogs and how dumb dogs are.

That is basically all that you are doing.  You are just coming where you are not particularly wanted and trying to throw sand into the machinery.  Hurry and hallalulieh, you think you have done something godly after each post.  You haven't. 

It isn't that I specially dislike you.  You are just one of a long line of theists who show up here.  In a Desiderata sense, you have a right to be here.  Everyone has to be SOMEWHERE.  But I wish you were annoying your fellow theiists rather than us...

[Absolute_Agent]

The US was not founded as a religious nation.

What nonsense.  Go read the Declaration of Independence, whose opening sentence states:

"the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, "

And which closes with:

"And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor."

There intention of the founders was not the abolishment of religion as atheists pretend, but the establishment of freedom of religion--specifically to address the long train of abuses which ultimately traced back to the Roman Catholic Church.  This was accomplished through separation of Church and State.  America has always been religious in character, as it is today.  The intent was that no one religion could dominate.  Modern atheism is heavily associated with Marxist political ideology for all appearances.  It was Marx who said "religion is the opiate of the people."

You asked "explain to me from what standard your moral foundation for just laws is derived".  I've addressed that often.  Just laws derive from human experience in getting along together in groups.  And I will add that religious texts always follow human experience, not arise before it.  No religious idea can be shown to come before human experience with a problem.

Religion (at best) CODIFIES human experiences.  And therefore, is not derived externally from "above".

You said "Secularism was invented by religious people".  In all my life, I have never heard a sillier idea.  I would say "idiotic" and "moronic", but I'm trying to restrain myself.  To explain that, I have to hope that you understand that there were once hominids  who did not have thoughts of deities.  They ate fruits and roots and sometimes scavenged marrow from bones.  There is evidence of that.  Alright so far?

So basically, you are proposing that one day, one of these hominids suddenly woke up and said "Oh Dang, we were created by a power from above and HE says we must not do certain things that offend him like work on his sabbath day, carve statues we might thing represent HIM, and not believe in other powers we never even thought of to admire until HE just mentioned it to me today.

Do you see how silly that is?

This is a mix of fantasy and fiction. Divine laws have been received through revelation since the beginning of human civilization.  It was always an organic process.  You assumed hominid had no religion or divine inspiration.  Convenient assumption for your narrative, but even if true, it would only go to show the state humans are capable of attaining without divine guidance.

In a practical sense, it is the concept of a deity that ruins humankind too often.  It's not which leaders commit more atrocities than others and which are theists and which are not.  Some very religious leaders killed millions and some leaders who were religious also killed millions.  Atheism is not a specific set of beliefs.  I can't recall any who specifically said "I killed them in the name of my atheistic beliefs.  One CAN, however, find many who specifically killed in the name of their religion.

For example, "The Crusaders were accompanied by an official representative of the Pope, a French Cistercian monk named Arnaud Amalric (also variously referred to as Arnald Amalric and Arnauld-Amaury).

De Montfort demanded that the leaders of Beziers turn over the town’s Cathar heretics to him. They refused. The Crusaders attacked.

According to accounts written decades later, as the attack began, a soldier asked Amalric how they would be able to tell which Beziers townspeople were Catholics and which were Cathars.

Amalric supposedly answered (in French):  “Kill them all. God will recognize his own.”

No atheist ever said THAT...

And with THAT, I leave you for now.

In your convenient narrative, religion becomes the cause of all human excesses.   Yet this example does not demonstrate ideal behavior derived from an understanding of religious guidance, but rather a superficial religiousity twisted for political purposes.  Politicians frequently use religion, but authentic religion was never meant to be a tool for politicians.  This is what the founding fathers realized, and why they separated Church and State.



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[Absolute_Agent]

You would be here if tied to wild horses trying to drag you away.  You life's purpose is to convince us atheists we are somehow stupidly wrong.  Or else you WOULDN'T be here.

I'M here because I want to talk to fellow atheists about various subjects rationally and without idiot theists like you getting in the way every damned post!  If I wanted to argue and annoy people like you, I would go to theistic sites.  I don't.

I love cats (for example).  And I specifically do not like dogs (I have reasons).  But that doesn't mean I go to dog discussion boards and tell them how much better cats are than dogs and how dumb dogs are.

That is basically all that you are doing.  You are just coming where you are not particularly wanted and trying to throw sand into the machinery.  Hurry and hallalulieh, you think you have done something godly after each post.  You haven't. 

It isn't that I specially dislike you.  You are just one of a long line of theists who show up here.  In a Desiderata sense, you have a right to be here.  Everyone has to be SOMEWHERE.  But I wish you were annoying your fellow theiists rather than us...

You crack me up.  It was worth coming here just to meet you.  And I'm not being facetious.  I'm also haggling with my fellow theists, if that makes you feel any better, but they aren't half as fun as atheists. [emoji28]

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[josephpalazzo]

You crack me up.  It was worth coming here just to meet you.  And I'm not being facetious.  I'm also haggling with my fellow theists, if that makes you feel any better, but they aren't half as fun as atheists. [emoji28]

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Liar.

[Cavebear]

What nonsense.  Go read the Declaration of Independence, whose opening sentence states:

"the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, "

And which closes with:

"And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor."

There intention of the founders was not the abolishment of religion as atheists pretend, but the establishment of freedom of religion--specifically to address the long train of abuses which ultimately traced back to the Roman Catholic Church.  This was accomplished through separation of Church and State.  America has always been religious in character, as it is today.  The intent was that no one religion could dominate.  Modern atheism is heavily associated with Marxist political ideology for all appearances.  It was Marx who said "religion is the opiate of the people."This is a mix of fantasy and fiction. Divine laws have been received through revelation since the beginning of human civilization.  It was always an organic process.  You assumed hominid had no religion or divine inspiration.  Convenient assumption for your narrative, but even if true, it would only go to show the state humans are capable of attaining without divine guidance.In your convenient narrative, religion becomes the cause of all human excesses.   Yet this example does not demonstrate ideal behavior derived from an understanding of religious guidance, but rather a superficial religiousity twisted for political purposes.  Politicians frequently use religion, but authentic religion was never meant to be a tool for politicians.  This is what the founding fathers realized, and why they separated Church and State.



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Please...  The Declaration was a verbose call to arms and a protest document.  It is certainly stirring.  I often read it aloud on July 4th (inaccurate the date may be).  You don't people activated by quoting a lot of rules.  Back in the 70s, I was a talented creator of protest signs.  If you are old enough, you probably saw some of them (not that I was the best).

But the US was not constructed on the Declaration Of Independence.  It was constructed in The Constitution.

[Baruch]

The US was not founded as a religious nation.  It is ruled by laws.  The preamble to the Constitution says "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.", etc.  Note that there is no mention of a religion, any deity.

"In God We Trust" was a law passed in a Joint Resolution by the 84th Congress (P.L. 84-140) and approved by President Dwight Eisenhower on July 30, 1956, that declared "In God We Trust" must appear on American currency. This phrase was first used on paper money in 1957, when it appeared on the one-dollar silver certificate.  It was a knee-jerk response to "godless communism".

Religion (in general or in specific) might be what you think the US is, but it is not what I think it is.  So it is not what makes America who WE are.  You like religion as a basis, I like laws, and laws re what rule us. 

You asked "explain to me from what standard your moral foundation for just laws is derived".  I've addressed that often.  Just laws derive from human experience in getting along together in groups.  And I will add that religious texts always follow human experience, not arise before it.  No religious idea can be shown to come before human experience with a problem.

Religion (at best) CODIFIES human experiences.  And therefore, is not derived externally from "above".

You said "Secularism was invented by religious people".  In all my life, I have never heard a sillier idea.  I would say "idiotic" and "moronic", but I'm trying to restrain myself.  To explain that, I have to hope that you understand that there were once hominids  who did not have thoughts of deities.  They ate fruits and roots and sometimes scavenged marrow from bones.  There is evidence of that.  Alright so far?

So basically, you are proposing that one day, one of these hominids suddenly woke up and said "Oh Dang, we were created by a power from above and HE says we must not do certain things that offend him like work on his sabbath day, carve statues we might thing represent HIM, and not believe in other powers we never even thought of to admire until HE just mentioned it to me today.

Do you see how silly that is?

In a practical sense, it is the concept of a deity that ruins humankind too often.  It's not which leaders commit more atrocities than others and which are theists and which are not.  Some very religious leaders killed millions and some leaders who were religious also killed millions.  Atheism is not a specific set of beliefs.  I can't recall any who specifically said "I killed them in the name of my atheistic beliefs.  One CAN, however, find many who specifically killed in the name of their religion.

For example, "The Crusaders were accompanied by an official representative of the Pope, a French Cistercian monk named Arnaud Amalric (also variously referred to as Arnald Amalric and Arnauld-Amaury).

De Montfort demanded that the leaders of Beziers turn over the town’s Cathar heretics to him. They refused. The Crusaders attacked.

According to accounts written decades later, as the attack began, a soldier asked Amalric how they would be able to tell which Beziers townspeople were Catholics and which were Cathars.

Amalric supposedly answered (in French):  “Kill them all. God will recognize his own.”

No atheist ever said THAT...

And with THAT, I leave you for now.

We were founded as a Freemasonic conspiracy.  Prove me wrong ;-)

[Baruch]

How touching, you see yourselves as victims.  "In God We Trust" is what makes America who we are.  The problem is you confuse secularism with the abolishment of religious expression.  Secularism was invented by religious people, for religious people primarily.  Atheists are welcome but as a group you are incapable of maintaining a neutral attitude towards theistic paradigms, with some rare exceptions.  Now if you want political power so much, explain to me from what standard your moral foundation for just laws is derived?  You can't because there is none.  But, now you want to run things?  All I see in atheist groups is something like a pack of housecats.  Each to his own devices.  Amusing when you are kept as pets, but catastrophic when your ideology gets the upper hand. Guess where Hitler derived his eugenics program?  Yeah, Darwinism.  Yet @MikeCI over here writes a rambling treatise on how it's such a benign principle.  Everything is benign until you try to subtract God from the equation.  Then it's mayhem. 

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US has always been schizoid.  Are we to be European or not?  A parallel to the woe of GB.  Today the battle is ... should the US be an atheist Euro-Communist police state, like Germany and France?  I am not seeing the EU being successful in over-powering the US.  GB is on a much weaker ship of state, shall it remain an atheist Anglo-Monarchist police state?

[Baruch]

The difficulty is that it is hard to be sure of "the right people to kill".  Partial fingerprints are too often presented as complete, hair samples that were once thought undoubtable are a joke.  Even DNA tests can be pooched!  Wrongful convictions are estimated to be between 2-10%.

You took me literally again.  I wouldn't kill a fly.  But the predatory nature of human beings is coming to the fore.  You should always kill the Them, not the Us, of course.  As divided by perceived (real?) existential crisis.  1930s are coming back.  It was not true that European Jews were an existential threat to Western civilization, but a part of its core.  But were perceived as a fatal threat, because Communism was perceived as Jewish on the one hand, and Capitalism was perceived as Jewish on the other hand.  There is no accounting for Gentile stupidity.

[Baruch]

You crack me up.  It was worth coming here just to meet you.  And I'm not being facetious.  I'm also haggling with my fellow theists, if that makes you feel any better, but they aren't half as fun as atheists. [emoji28]

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Some of us are charter members of the Curmudgeon club ;-)

[Baruch]

Please...  The Declaration was a verbose call to arms and a protest document.  It is certainly stirring.  I often read it aloud on July 4th (inaccurate the date may be).  You don't people activated by quoting a lot of rules.  Back in the 70s, I was a talented creator of protest signs.  If you are old enough, you probably saw some of them (not that I was the best).

But the US was not constructed on the Declaration Of Independence.  It was constructed in The Constitution.

Yes, you 5th columnist, you ;-)