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Quest for Truth

Started by Absolute_Agent, June 16, 2019, 09:02:36 PM

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drunkenshoe

OK, you can't follow it. But this is so 80s. Go watch some David Icke and get with times. I dunno, get into UFOs, reptilians...etc. Satanists? Lol. You make me miss old crackpots we used to have around here.

"science is not about building a body of known 'facts'. ıt is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting them to a reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever makes us feel good." - tp

Unbeliever

Quote from: josephpalazzo on August 04, 2019, 04:06:16 PM
You should quit while you're ahead.

He's ahead!? How'd that happen? I haven't been keeping score, but I don't think he's ahead...

:-P
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

josephpalazzo

Quote from: Unbeliever on August 04, 2019, 05:54:08 PM
He's ahead!? How'd that happen? I haven't been keeping score, but I don't think he's ahead...

:-P

A little encouragement can go a long way...

Baruch

Quote from: josephpalazzo on August 04, 2019, 11:09:58 AM
There's no confusion. My post was about you being a useful idiot who  spreads religion for the benefits of those in power. You haven't answered my previous post because you know I'm right. You are a propagandist who is too stupid to realize that you are on the wrong forum. Only idiots like Baruch will agree with you.

Hey ... you woke up from your nap? ;-)  Sorry, you woke up on the wrong side of the bed.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 04, 2019, 04:21:21 PM
OK, you can't follow it. But this is so 80s. Go watch some David Icke and get with times. I dunno, get into UFOs, reptilians...etc. Satanists? Lol. You make me miss old crackpots we used to have around here.

US is repeating the 1960s.  We can't repeat two decades (adding 1980s) at the same time!
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Hydra009

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on August 04, 2019, 07:05:09 AMLike uniformitarianism?  Oh yeah, you dodged that topic.
Ooh, burn!  ...I think.  No wait, I think that was the one where you were giving me some tripe about how uniformitarianism was disproven as if it were an obvious fact.  Quite presumptuous.  It must be nice to swing from conclusion to conclusion and taking your own opinion as gospel without having to worry about the hard work of having to actually sift through any data.

QuoteShow me any religion that teaches suicide.
Oh really?  You've never heard of the concept of martyrdom?

QuoteCults don't count as they are by definition deviations from religious orthodoxy.
Special pleading.

QuoteChina, the largest atheist state, is quite law- abiding.  They also harvest organs from political dissidents involuntarily.
I feel like there's another factor at work here that strongly affects things.  By the way, I can't help notice that you never really answered the question about Sweden and the Czech Republic.  And the reason is obvious - it doesn't fit your narrative of atheist dystopia.

Cavebear

Quote from: Baruch on August 02, 2019, 02:58:26 AM
Not all thinking is scientific.  Atheists say, everything is natural (this is rhetoric).  It is similar to make the claim that all thinking is scientific. Scientific thinking is a particular kind of thinking that has to be taught.

It is possible to explore the world scientifically learning as you go (childhood) and possible to refine that process into more defined ways (adulthood).  That does not mean I can't enjoy asparagus just for the smell of it in my pee or the sensation of a spicy shrimp in a garlic sauce. 

But when one considers a question that is factual in nature, science is the way to go.  And it is important to recognize what science is NOT. Too many people think science is "having an idea".  Of course not.  But that's what many people do when they say they have a "theory".  It's a supposition at best.

I am reminded that Aristotle basically thought that earthquakes were Earth farts caused by the wind blowing underground through caves.  One other (I forget who at the moment) thought they were from the waves pounding on the shore.  Interesting ideas, given that Earth movement seemed idiotic until the 1960s.  The point being that they never TESTED their suppositions.

So it shows that just having an idea means little scientifically.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Baruch

Quote from: Cavebear on August 05, 2019, 07:34:38 AM
It is possible to explore the world scientifically learning as you go (childhood) and possible to refine that process into more defined ways (adulthood).  That does not mean I can't enjoy asparagus just for the smell of it in my pee or the sensation of a spicy shrimp in a garlic sauce. 

But when one considers a question that is factual in nature, science is the way to go.  And it is important to recognize what science is NOT. Too many people think science is "having an idea".  Of course not.  But that's what many people do when they say they have a "theory".  It's a supposition at best.

I am reminded that Aristotle basically thought that earthquakes were Earth farts caused by the wind blowing underground through caves.  One other (I forget who at the moment) thought they were from the waves pounding on the shore.  Interesting ideas, given that Earth movement seemed idiotic until the 1960s.  The point being that they never TESTED their suppositions.

So it shows that just having an idea means little scientifically.

If one is a Poindexter, then one was born in a lab coat.  But most people aren't like that.  You have been skeptical of religion your whole life, compared to other posters who came to skepticism later in life.  But skepticism isn't the same thing as science, it is a necessary ingredient.  In a sense, we are opposites as children.  While I wasn't raised in religion, I was open minded about it an many there things.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Cavebear

Quote from: Baruch on August 05, 2019, 07:55:44 AM
If one is a Poindexter, then one was born in a lab coat.  But most people aren't like that.  You have been skeptical of religion your whole life, compared to other posters who came to skepticism later in life.  But skepticism isn't the same thing as science, it is a necessary ingredient.  In a sense, we are opposites as children.  While I wasn't raised in religion, I was open minded about it an many there things.

First "Poindexter" (a boringly studious and socially inept person).  Is THAT where Dextor's name comes from in the children's cartoon of the silly little lab rat?    I never made that connection (I'll watch almost anything humorous) and fully admit it.

Second, I've always admired people who came to atheism as adults in spite of the childhoods.  My path was easy.  I have always wondered what my life would have been like if my parents were either moderately of extremely religious.  We are all much the product of our early experiences.

I might well be here arguing with my current fellow (and fellowess?) members as a religious troll instead.  One never knows.  Or not at all on either side, just being the Grand Poobah of some gardening site.  Life is not like the old Quest games where you roll the die and a character has fixed powers for the whole game.

I will forebear to suggest that you always were not ever open-minded...  ;)

Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Mike Cl

Absolute, you are expert at ducking questions or ignoring them.  So, with that in mind, could you address these points??

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on July 27, 2019, 01:34:58 PM
I don't dispute that life is characterized by suffering & death.  Life is also characterized by birth and growth, happiness and pleasure.  Where do you think these came from--random accidents?  What I do find perplexing is how the existence of suffering is assumed to cancel out the existence of comfort and pleasure, or negate the possibility of mercy.  You assume that plants must suffer when they are cooked and eaten--but how do you know?  Does your asparagus cry and scream when you are placing it in your mouth?  As for animals, it is not necessary to kill and eat them in order to survive, we've only been conditioned to eat this way.  It's actually much more efficient and healthy to be vegetarian.

Sent from my moto e5 play using Tapatalk
I was going to ignore this post of yours, but I've changed my mind.  You do seem to be a little more thoughtful than most theists that visit here.  So, here goes.
1.  I did not claim (or think) that life is only pain and suffering.  Birth and growth and happiness and pleasure is also a major component of life.  Where does that come from??  From living in a society.  Whatever society/culture we are raised in provides us with the guidelines for what each of those mean and how to avoid/cultivate them.  Then we put own own personal touches on them.

2.  I don't assume that plants feel pain when being cooked or eaten.  You put that assumption into my mouth.  Plants are dead when eaten for the most part.  Yes, cows can eat living grass, but for the most part, humans eat what plants produce; and when we eat them they are dead.  But without living plants all animals would die.  So, as an animal, humans must kill plants to live.  I don't claim they suffer--but they might.  Some experiments suggest plants are more aware of their environment than we had thought.  Some give off chemical signals to neighbors that there is danger nearby.  Some suggest plants do better if a certain type of music is played and not as well when other types are played. 

3.  As for asparagus, I do not let that stuff get anywhere near my mouth!  It may not scream if eaten, but I would probably scream if I had to eat it. 

4.  As for it not being necessary for humans to have meat to survive, that is still up in the air.  It is true, though, that humans have always been omnivorous--we (as a group) would eat almost anything that did not crawl out of our mouths first.  My niece is a vegan and seems to be doing quite well with that.  I have cut down my meat consumption as I've aged and find I don't miss it all that much anymore. I am leaning more and more toward what you say--vegetarians are generally healthier. 

5.  God created mercy and pain and suffering I think you ducked for the most part.  In nature there are two systems that do not require living things to kill to survive.  One is photosynthesis--which requires the sun, of course.  The other exists where sunlight can't get to--the ocean floor.  There volcanic vents provide the heat and minerals need to sustain life.  both systems provide for a way for the living to gather their energy from non-living sources.  This is not so for humans.  We HAVE to gather energy from living sources--or sources that once were alive.  We must kill to live.  There is no choice--vegetarians still  must eat things that were once alive.  Whether those plants suffer is beside the point--they still must be killed.  I understand this to be a bit of proof against the idea of any gods.  Animals eating animals is a built in system of pain and suffering.  Why would a merciful god create such a system when he could use any system he wanted?  So, since god created nature as it is now, he must have done so on purpose.  I don't find any mercy there.

6.  Where do birth defects fit into mercy?  Or babies born with diseases and parasites?  Or punishing people for not following god's rules when he did not make it plain what those rules are?  There is not one religious scripture that is clear, or universal, or written in all languages, or one that does not conflict with itself.  How is that possible if there is one god?  What religion a person follows is very heavily predicated upon geography--not that that one religion is more viable than another.  Why are all scriptures found in only one place on Earth, and slowly spread?  If the bible, for example, were found in all places on Earth and all dated to the same time frame, that would be a powerful sign that the bible is what it's followers say it is, the work and word of god.  I would then do my damnedest to learn what it said and then obey!  But it comes from only one place on Earth.  That makes it clear to me that religion is regional, not universal.  That would be odd for a creator god--or it seems so to me.   

PS--I was totally wrong in my assessment of you compared to other theists.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Cavebear

Quote from: Mike Cl on August 05, 2019, 10:20:33 AM
Absolute, you are expert at ducking questions or ignoring them.  So, with that in mind, could you address these points??

There should be a special forum for Absolute and Baruch to argue in.  To leave the rest of us alone.  They could entertain each other to a score of years...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Baruch

Quote from: Cavebear on August 05, 2019, 11:17:06 AM
There should be a special forum for Absolute and Baruch to argue in.  To leave the rest of us alone.  They could entertain each other to a score of years...

I was open minded as a child.  As a senior, I want all you to get off my grass! ;-)

I don't argue with Absolute much ... that is being done admirably by others.  I am more copacetic with Arik (and again, not much argument).

It is you old farts, Cavebear and Joe who want a quiet old folks home ;-)
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Cavebear

Quote from: Baruch on August 05, 2019, 11:38:47 AM
I was open minded as a child.  As a senior, I want all you to get off my grass! ;-)

I don't argue with Absolute much ... that is being done admirably by others.  I am more copacetic with Arik (and again, not much argument).

It is you old farts, Cavebear and Joe who want a quiet old folks home ;-)

If I wanted a quiet old folks home, I sure wouldn't be here.  I just meant that you and Absolute have enough in common but also difference that you COULD just bother each other forever in endless nonsense and leave the rest of us alone in peace.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Baruch

Quote from: Cavebear on August 05, 2019, 11:44:36 AM
If I wanted a quiet old folks home, I sure wouldn't be here.  I just meant that you and Absolute have enough in common but also difference that you COULD just bother each other forever in endless nonsense and leave the rest of us alone in peace.

Well you don't know me very well.  Sad.  And Absolute is new, and you probably don't read his stuff closely.  Absolute and I are not much alike (other than we both live in America, and are both maybe males).  About the same degree of separation as you and I have.  Arik on the other hand ...
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Unbeliever

Quote from: Cavebear on August 05, 2019, 09:42:08 AM
First "Poindexter" (a boringly studious and socially inept person).  Is THAT where Dextor's name comes from in the children's cartoon of the silly little lab rat?    I never made that connection (I'll watch almost anything humorous) and fully admit it.

Here's the only Poindexter I grew up with:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfPKIr_IT5o
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman