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Quest for Truth

Started by Absolute_Agent, June 16, 2019, 09:02:36 PM

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Baruch

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on August 03, 2019, 10:17:11 AM
That's a wild distortion.  There has never been a period of history where any culture has not had to take up the sword for mere survival--religion or no religion.   The sword does not pertain to religion--rather it pertains to the nature of life on Earth.

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All atheists are pacifists, like Gandhi ... uh ... Gandhi was Hindu.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on August 03, 2019, 11:06:17 AM
Are you living in a bunker somewhere in upstate New York?  We're under secular rule.

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For atheists, the mere existence of one religious person is ... reeee.  Well, that is paranoia, not atheism.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

#302
Quote from: Absolute_Agent on August 03, 2019, 10:40:19 AM
What a convincing argument that all the scriptures must be fiction... [emoji848]. Everyone in your church disagreed about the interpretation; and you said so to boot.  Jaw-dropping. Welp, I might as well sell off my copies of the Bible; Mike CI said it was all fiction!

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All scripture is fiction, is man made.  Inspired?  That is the question.  For libertines, any writing that doesn't say ... go and do whatever you feel like ... is Nazis.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on August 03, 2019, 11:06:17 AM
Are you living in a bunker somewhere in upstate New York?  We're under secular rule.

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Updates NY has Hasidic Jews.  W Pennsylvania has Amish.  Miniature Irans.  Utah has Mormons.  They are the only ones in the US not under secular rule.  People here however are totalitarian for their particular political party.  Secular isn't enough, you have to be the right flavor of secular.  And the POV now is ... if we don't crush our opponents, we will be crushed.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Absolute_Agent

#304
Quote from: Mike Cl on August 03, 2019, 10:58:54 AM
What leads you to believe the bible is not fiction?
The content.  I always judge content first.  Fiction denotes falsehood.  You can't know something is false simply because the evidence doesn't add up.  You can only know for certain is that it hasn't been proved true.  This is the only logical position in your case, going strictly by scientific standards.  In my case, the content is more important than the mode in which it was transmitted.  If it produces good results, then it is true enough.  If not, then I start digging.  And that's what I have done.  That's how I prove it to myself, because this is the standard that matters most to me.  I'm not overly interested in scientific methods unless they're playing a supporting role for a larger objective.  This is because I don't consider science as being capable of ever arriving at ultimate reality! [emoji16]

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SGOS

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on August 03, 2019, 11:06:17 AM
Are you living in a bunker somewhere in upstate New York?  We're under secular rule.
Yes, and that secular rule is what gives you your precious right to religious freedom.  Well... as long as you don't impinge on the freedom of others.  We no longer throw a guy in a lake with a rock tied around his neck to see if he is free of sin.  Nor do we burn women at the stake, another religious practice that delighted the righteous.  Religion was the cause of that.  Reason was the cure.  Skeptics reasoned that this was unfounded nonsense.  Religion is behind much of the world's atrocities, both historically and today.  Reason brought it to a more enlightened society, well hardly completely enlightened, as evidenced by people like yourself.

Baruch

#306
Quote from: SGOS on August 03, 2019, 12:01:26 PM
Yes, and that secular rule is what gives you your precious right to religious freedom.  Well... as long as you don't impinge on the freedom of others.  We no longer throw a guy in a lake with a rock tied around his neck to see if he is free of sin.  Nor do we burn women at the stake, another religious practice that delighted the righteous.  Religion was the cause of that.  Reason was the cure.  Skeptics reasoned that this was unfounded nonsense.  Religion is behind much of the world's atrocities, both historically and today.  Reason brought it to a more enlightened society, well hardly completely enlightened, as evidenced by people like yourself.

No, you support the Saudis murdering in Yemen and the ISIS in Syria.

When the Papacy was a crime ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCkE1RXQ8kg

Pope Alexander was the guy who decided in 1498 that half the world belonged to Spain and the other half to Portugal.  Inadvertently creating Brazil.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Absolute_Agent



Quote from: Mike Cl on August 03, 2019, 10:58:54 AM
Which bible, btw, would you want to discard?  There are so many out there that saying you'd toss out a bible gives us no clue as to which one it is.
I was being facetious of course.  I consider the NRSV to be most accurate, although no translation can be relied upon as authoritative.

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Baruch

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on August 03, 2019, 12:44:34 PM
I was being facetious of course.  I consider the NRSV to be most accurate, although no translation can be relied upon as authoritative.

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You don't read Hebrew and Greek??  Scandalous.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Mike Cl

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on August 03, 2019, 10:10:55 AM
Let me help you with that:

1.  Remove 10 Commandments.  Result: Murder is legal, including human sacrifice and cannibalism.  Theft is legal, property law is abolished.  The most ruthless and bloodthirsty rule by default.  Marriage abolished, meaning women are left to deal with offspring on their own, many of which do not survive.  Society collapses as there is no civil order, and thus no commerce or industry is possible.  We return to a hunter-gatherer society of small roaming tribal groups, each with its own gods and constantly battling over resources and perpetual grievances. Perjury is legal meaning the courts become irrelevant and you must personally fight to resolve any infringement of your rights, or hope your family will do so.  Eventually it's simply question of which tribe can exterminate the others before they get exterminated--you know, "survival of the fittest." There's a little snapshot for you of what the world looks like without organized religion. 

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My oh my--savages we would be if not for the 10 Commandments!!  Thank god for god!!!  But..........in all the 10 commandments I've read it says not to kill--doesn't mention murder.  I've read some pundits who said that the word 'kill' in this instance means murder, yet it still says kill in the bibles I've read.  So, if you put your trust in the bible, then simply killing anything is against god's directive and you violate it daily.  The 10 Commandments are all that stands between us and a collapsed society?  Really?  You do realize that our legal system is based on English common law and precedent, right?  And more directly on our constitution which to my knowledge does not mention the 10 commandments nor god.  What does perjury have to do with the bible??  It is not even used anymore for swearing in. 

You may strive to follow the 10 commandments, but I'm not sure you know what they are.  Do you know where to find them in your bible?  Here--i'll help.  There are three sets located at Exodus 20 and another at Exodus 34, and a third at Deut. 5.  This is what the list at Ex. 34 looks like:
34:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.

God said to Moses,
Make two stone tablets like the ones that you broke.
I'll write the same words that were on the originals. [1]

34:2 And be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning unto mount Sinai, and present thyself there to me in the top of the mount.

34:3 And no man shall come up with thee, neither let any man be seen throughout all the mount; neither let the flocks nor herds feed before that mount.

Present yourself to me tomorrow morning on the top of Mount Sinai.

But keep all other people and animals away from the mountain.

34:4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.

So Moses cut two stone tablets that were like the first ones.

Then, early the next morning, he carried them up mount Sinai. [2]

34:5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.

When Moses got to the top of the mountain, God descended in a cloud and stood there with him [3], while making a little speech.

34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

He began by introducing himself to Moses, saying:

I am the Lord, the Lord God, merciful, gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth.

34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

I am merciful and forgiving, although I punish children for what their fathers did, even for what their great-great grandfathers did a hundred years before they were born. [4]

34:8 And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped.

34:9 And he said, If now I have found grace in thy sight, O LORD, let my LORD, I pray thee, go among us; for it is a stiffnecked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for thine inheritance.

Moses bowed down so low that his head touched the ground, and said,

Please go with us, for we are a stiffnecked people.
Forgive our sins and take us for your inheritance.

34:10 And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of the LORD: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee.

God said to Moses,

I'll make a covenant with you.
I'll do marvels and a terrible thing like no one has ever seen before.

34:11 Observe thou that which I command thee this day: behold, I drive out before thee the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite.

You will obey the commands that I give you today.

And I'll drive out all the people who live on the land where you're going. [5]

34:12 Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee:

Make sure that you don't make any covenants with them.

34:13 But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:

Destroy all their altars, images, and groves.

34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

And don't worship any other god. [6]

Because my name is "Jealous" [7] and I am a jealous God.

34:15 Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;

So don't make any covenants with them, don't go whoring after their gods [8], and don't eat any sacrifices to them.

34:16 And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods.

Don't take their daughters for your sons, because their daughters go a whoring after their gods and they'll make your sons go a whoring after their gods. [9]

34:17 Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.

Don't make any molten gods.

34:18 The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.

Keep the feast of unleaven bread.

34:19 All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male.

The first male offspring of every womb belongs to me.

34:20 But the firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb: and if thou redeem him not, then shalt thou break his neck. All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.

But your first male ass you shall redeem with a lamb.

If you fail to redeem him, you must break his neck.

You must redeem all your sons. [10]

No one shall appear before me empty.

34:21 Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.

Don't work on the seventh day. [11]
`
34:22 And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.

Observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits, and of ingathering.
34:23 Thrice in the year shall all your menchildren appear before the LORD God, the God of Israel.

Three times a year all your men must appear before me.   [12]
34:24 For I will cast out the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the LORD thy God thrice in the year.

I'll cast out the nations before you and enlarge your borders.
No one will want your land. [13]

34:25 Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.

Don't offer the blood of my sacrifices with leaven.

And don't leave any leftovers from your passover sacrifice until morning.

34:26 The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

Bring your first fruits to my house.

Don't boil a kid in its mother's milk.

34:27 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.

God said to Moses,
Write these words; they are my covenant with you and Israel. [14]

34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

The first part of this passage clearly demonstrates your god's mercy (yes, I mean lack of it!).
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Baruch

G-d isn't like Gandhi.  Not even Gandhi was like Gandhi.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Absolute_Agent

Quote from: SGOS on August 03, 2019, 12:01:26 PM
Yes, and that secular rule is what gives you your precious right to religious freedom.  Well... as long as you don't impinge on the freedom of others.  We no longer throw a guy in a lake with a rock tied around his neck to see if he is free of sin.  Nor do we burn women at the stake, another religious practice that delighted the righteous.  Religion was the cause of that.  Reason was the cure.  Skeptics reasoned that this was unfounded nonsense.  Religion is behind much of the world's atrocities, both historically and today.  Reason brought it to a more enlightened society, well hardly completely enlightened, as evidenced by people like yourself.
Some tragic examples of extremism to be sure, and I am a proponent of religious freedom.  No doubt you're not bothered at all that satanists (atheists) are abusing that same religious freedom to sacrifice children alive.

https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/brazilian-police-release-details-of-grisly-child-sacrifice

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Absolute_Agent

Quote from: Mike Cl on August 03, 2019, 12:58:41 PM
My oh my--savages we would be if not for the 10 Commandments!!  Thank god for god!!!  But..........in all the 10 commandments I've read it says not to kill--doesn't mention murder.  I've read some pundits who said that the word 'kill' in this instance means murder, yet it still says kill in the bibles I've read.  So, if you put your trust in the bible, then simply killing anything is against god's directive and you violate it daily.  The 10 Commandments are all that stands between us and a collapsed society?  Really?  You do realize that our legal system is based on English common law and precedent, right?  And more directly on our constitution which to my knowledge does not mention the 10 commandments nor god.  What does perjury have to do with the bible??  It is not even used anymore for swearing in. 

You may strive to follow the 10 commandments, but I'm not sure you know what they are.  Do you know where to find them in your bible?  Here--i'll help.  There are three sets located at Exodus 20 and another at Exodus 34, and a third at Deut. 5.  This is what the list at Ex. 34 looks like:
34:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.

God said to Moses,
Make two stone tablets like the ones that you broke.
I'll write the same words that were on the originals. [1]

34:2 And be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning unto mount Sinai, and present thyself there to me in the top of the mount.

34:3 And no man shall come up with thee, neither let any man be seen throughout all the mount; neither let the flocks nor herds feed before that mount.

Present yourself to me tomorrow morning on the top of Mount Sinai.

But keep all other people and animals away from the mountain.

34:4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.

So Moses cut two stone tablets that were like the first ones.

Then, early the next morning, he carried them up mount Sinai. [2]

34:5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.

When Moses got to the top of the mountain, God descended in a cloud and stood there with him [3], while making a little speech.

34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

He began by introducing himself to Moses, saying:

I am the Lord, the Lord God, merciful, gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth.

34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

I am merciful and forgiving, although I punish children for what their fathers did, even for what their great-great grandfathers did a hundred years before they were born. [4]

34:8 And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped.

34:9 And he said, If now I have found grace in thy sight, O LORD, let my LORD, I pray thee, go among us; for it is a stiffnecked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for thine inheritance.

Moses bowed down so low that his head touched the ground, and said,

Please go with us, for we are a stiffnecked people.
Forgive our sins and take us for your inheritance.

34:10 And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of the LORD: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee.

God said to Moses,

I'll make a covenant with you.
I'll do marvels and a terrible thing like no one has ever seen before.

34:11 Observe thou that which I command thee this day: behold, I drive out before thee the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite.

You will obey the commands that I give you today.

And I'll drive out all the people who live on the land where you're going. [5]

34:12 Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee:

Make sure that you don't make any covenants with them.

34:13 But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:

Destroy all their altars, images, and groves.

34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

And don't worship any other god. [6]

Because my name is "Jealous" [7] and I am a jealous God.

34:15 Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;

So don't make any covenants with them, don't go whoring after their gods [8], and don't eat any sacrifices to them.

34:16 And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods.

Don't take their daughters for your sons, because their daughters go a whoring after their gods and they'll make your sons go a whoring after their gods. [9]

34:17 Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.

Don't make any molten gods.

34:18 The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.

Keep the feast of unleaven bread.

34:19 All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male.

The first male offspring of every womb belongs to me.

34:20 But the firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb: and if thou redeem him not, then shalt thou break his neck. All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.

But your first male ass you shall redeem with a lamb.

If you fail to redeem him, you must break his neck.

You must redeem all your sons. [10]

No one shall appear before me empty.

34:21 Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.

Don't work on the seventh day. [11]
`
34:22 And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.

Observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits, and of ingathering.
34:23 Thrice in the year shall all your menchildren appear before the LORD God, the God of Israel.

Three times a year all your men must appear before me.   [12]
34:24 For I will cast out the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the LORD thy God thrice in the year.

I'll cast out the nations before you and enlarge your borders.
No one will want your land. [13]

34:25 Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.

Don't offer the blood of my sacrifices with leaven.

And don't leave any leftovers from your passover sacrifice until morning.

34:26 The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

Bring your first fruits to my house.

Don't boil a kid in its mother's milk.

34:27 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.

God said to Moses,
Write these words; they are my covenant with you and Israel. [14]

34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

The first part of this passage clearly demonstrates your god's mercy (yes, I mean lack of it!).
An atheist quoting scripture... Poignant.  What you fail to mention is that the tribes ordered to be exterminated were worshippers of Moloch--child sacrificers.  Not only that they were violating territorial boundaries by settling in the land of Israel. Do you wish they were still around today?  Well, look no more.  Here's the logical conclusion of atheism:

https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/brazilian-police-release-details-of-grisly-child-sacrifice

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Unbeliever

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on August 02, 2019, 11:43:54 PM
Again you assume (so much).  According to Genesis 1:30 God created all humans and animals to be vegetarian.  It was the fall of man which precipitated the savage conditions on Earth.

So, Eve ate some fruit and suddenly all the animals on Earth started eating each other? Can't you see how ridiculous that sounds to those of us who are outside your faith? Can you look at your faith from outside, as we do, and still not see why we don't believe it?
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Unbeliever

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on August 03, 2019, 12:02:56 AM
Everything I know about religion comes from contemplating the scriptures.

So it's the scriptures you have faith in, not the God they portray. Why do you believe the scriptures you've read are reliable avenues to Truth?
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman