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Quest for Truth

Started by Absolute_Agent, June 16, 2019, 09:02:36 PM

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aitm

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on August 02, 2019, 03:49:06 PM
This:
"Why are all scriptures found in only one place on Earth, and slowly spread?"
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as yes another one who claims that of the thousands of religions humanity has invented- his is the correct one because it is the one his parents taught him. ho-hum...another twit.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Baruch

Quote from: Hydra009 on August 03, 2019, 12:50:13 AM
Amazing.  We actually agree about something.  Religion ought not to be about political power.

But it is.

It is and that's why the world is the way that it is now.  It's why we both have religion highly ingrained in us from a very young age.  It's a lot of ideas went unspoken for years, sometimes centuries.  It's why other ideas were spread far and wide, to the willing and unwilling alike.  It's why a lot of people spent their whole lives not quite themselves.

I often wonder what would've happened had religion never really been completely organized, had religion remained idle speculation and shamanistic ritual, never passing into written law or the corridors of power.  What would be different?  What would be the same?

If you don't like political power, ban political parties, ban Youtube, ban Google, ban Twitter ..
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

aitm

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on August 02, 2019, 03:49:06 PM
This:
"Why are all scriptures found in only one place on Earth, and slowly spread?"
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but to your point anyway....if you have ever bothered to read a book about human history you will not find a single religion has EVER spread without the use of a spear, sword or gun. So the idea that any religion spread because it was a just one is flat out bullshit and "absolute" proof of your ignorance.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

josephpalazzo

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on August 02, 2019, 05:47:18 PM
  But the point of religion has never been about "keeping control of the masses" as @josephpalazzo asserts.  This is just another urban legend.



An urban legend??? What about those imams who recruit young Muslims and promise them 72 virgins if they martyr themselves in the name of Allah and
send them to murder innocent people. Those imams are using religion for their own political ends. Urban legend my ass... The Saudi Royals are using religion throughout their kingdom to keep their citizens under tight control. Legend my ass...

Mike Cl

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on August 03, 2019, 12:15:02 AM
Here is the full reference:

"Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place." John 18:36

Establishing political power is not the purpose of religion. People who use it for that are misusing it. 


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A full quote is still a quote from fiction by a fictional character.  And I see the use of religion on any stage is misusing it.  Another problem I see with using any religion as a norm for anything, is that no two people in any religion believe the exact same thing.  When I was a member (and president of the board) of my church, I was amazed when I realized that no two people in that church (including the minister) believed the exact same things. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Absolute_Agent

Quote from: Hydra009 on August 03, 2019, 12:50:13 AM
I often wonder what would've happened had religion never really been completely organized, had religion remained idle speculation and shamanistic ritual, never passing into written law or the corridors of power.  What would be different?  What would be the same?
Let me help you with that:

1.  Remove 10 Commandments.  Result: Murder is legal, including human sacrifice and cannibalism.  Theft is legal, property law is abolished.  The most ruthless and bloodthirsty rule by default.  Marriage abolished, meaning women are left to deal with offspring on their own, many of which do not survive.  Society collapses as there is no civil order, and thus no commerce or industry is possible.  We return to a hunter-gatherer society of small roaming tribal groups, each with its own gods and constantly battling over resources and perpetual grievances. Perjury is legal meaning the courts become irrelevant and you must personally fight to resolve any infringement of your rights, or hope your family will do so.  Eventually it's simply question of which tribe can exterminate the others before they get exterminated--you know, "survival of the fittest." There's a little snapshot for you of what the world looks like without organized religion. 

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Absolute_Agent

Quote from: aitm on August 03, 2019, 09:14:58 AM
but to your point anyway....if you have ever bothered to read a book about human history you will not find a single religion has EVER spread without the use of a spear, sword or gun. So the idea that any religion spread because it was a just one is flat out bullshit and "absolute" proof of your ignorance.
That's a wild distortion.  There has never been a period of history where any culture has not had to take up the sword for mere survival--religion or no religion.   The sword does not pertain to religion--rather it pertains to the nature of life on Earth.

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Absolute_Agent

Quote from: josephpalazzo on August 03, 2019, 09:18:04 AM

An urban legend??? What about those imams who recruit young Muslims and promise them 72 virgins if they martyr themselves in the name of Allah and
send them to murder innocent people. Those imams are using religion for their own political ends. Urban legend my ass... The Saudi Royals are using religion throughout their kingdom to keep their citizens under tight control. Legend my ass...
That's geo-politics.  The fact that politicians frequently use religion doesn't equate to religion being about politics.  A simple logical error in your thought process, catalyzed by your confirmation bias. 

For instance, suppose you said, "all apples are red.". Some might agree with you, and some might not.  But you believe all apples are red.  Then you see me holding a red pear, and exclaim, "Why AA, you have an apple in your hand!". And then we get into an argument.  I say, yes, most apples are red, and most pears are not, but this red pear is still a pear despite all the green ones, and the many red apples.   But you've never seen a green apple nor a red pear and thus in your mind, it cannot be other than an apple.  To get me to agree that my pear is an apple you then say I am stupid, and advocating fake apples and pears.  Yet I'm still holding a pear.

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SGOS

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on August 03, 2019, 10:10:55 AM
Let me help you with that:

1.  Remove 10 Commandments.  Result: .............................. 
From what I can tell, your Hellish description describes much of the world now living under religious rule.

Absolute_Agent

Quote from: Mike Cl on August 03, 2019, 09:43:38 AM
A full quote is still a quote from fiction by a fictional character.  And I see the use of religion on any stage is misusing it.  Another problem I see with using any religion as a norm for anything, is that no two people in any religion believe the exact same thing.  When I was a member (and president of the board) of my church, I was amazed when I realized that no two people in that church (including the minister) believed the exact same things.
What a convincing argument that all the scriptures must be fiction... [emoji848]. Everyone in your church disagreed about the interpretation; and you said so to boot.  Jaw-dropping. Welp, I might as well sell off my copies of the Bible; Mike CI said it was all fiction!

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josephpalazzo

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on August 03, 2019, 10:33:24 AM
That's geo-politics.  The fact that politicians frequently use religion doesn't equate to religion being about politics.  A simple logical error in your thought process, catalyzed by your confirmation bias. 

Again you have a reading problem. I've never said that religion is about politics. What I said is that religion is used as a tool by those who are in power. And people like you are useful idiots in spreading a religion which turns the targeted people as prime zombies for those who are in power.

QuoteFor instance, suppose you said, "all apples are red.". Some might agree with you, and some might not.  But you believe all apples are red.  Then you see me holding a red pear, and exclaim, "Why AA, you have an apple in your hand!". And then we get into an argument.  I say, yes, most apples are red, and most pears are not, but this red pear is still a pear despite all the green ones, and the many red apples.   But you've never seen a green apple nor a red pear and thus in your mind, it cannot be other than an apple.  To get me to agree that my pear is an apple you then say I am stupid, and advocating fake apples and pears.  Yet I'm still holding a pear.

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You've mixed up my post with someone else's. I've never brought the subject of red apples. Try again.

Mike Cl

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on August 03, 2019, 10:40:19 AM
What a convincing argument that all the scriptures must be fiction... [emoji848]. Everyone in your church disagreed about the interpretation; and you said so to boot.  Jaw-dropping. Welp, I might as well sell off my copies of the Bible; Mike CI said it was all fiction!

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You keep putting words into my mouth--as a theist I do expect that type of thing from you.  I did NOT say, all disagreed with any interpretation of anything.  I said they all believed different things and that not any two people agreed completely one every point.

Which bible, btw, would you want to discard?  There are so many out there that saying you'd toss out a bible gives us no clue as to which one it is.  A 'fiction' is something created by people that is not based on facts or historical data; they made it up.  That describes any bible you wish to read.  I do say the bible is fiction--but I do so after much study of the history of the bible.  Clearly it is a work of fiction by committee and not one person; and compiled over a great length of time.  What leads you to believe the bible is not fiction? 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Absolute_Agent

#297
Quote from: SGOS on August 03, 2019, 10:39:46 AM
From what I can tell, your Hellish description describes much of the world now living under religious rule.
Are you living in a bunker somewhere in upstate New York?  We're under secular rule.

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Baruch

#298
Quote from: Absolute_Agent on August 03, 2019, 10:10:55 AM
Let me help you with that:

1.  Remove 10 Commandments.  Result: Murder is legal, including human sacrifice and cannibalism.  Theft is legal, property law is abolished.  The most ruthless and bloodthirsty rule by default.  Marriage abolished, meaning women are left to deal with offspring on their own, many of which do not survive.  Society collapses as there is no civil order, and thus no commerce or industry is possible.  We return to a hunter-gatherer society of small roaming tribal groups, each with its own gods and constantly battling over resources and perpetual grievances. Perjury is legal meaning the courts become irrelevant and you must personally fight to resolve any infringement of your rights, or hope your family will do so.  Eventually it's simply question of which tribe can exterminate the others before they get exterminated--you know, "survival of the fittest." There's a little snapshot for you of what the world looks like without organized religion. 

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Atheists don't think evil exists.  Just voting for the wrong political party ;-)  They also think that by their giant alien brains, they can deduce natural law (without closet reference to residual religious culture).  They support evolution but deny the predatory nature of humans.  Or better yet, say that predation is natural and should not be prohibited.  They of course despise the ancestors, from whom such scriptures derive.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

#299
Quote from: SGOS on August 03, 2019, 10:39:46 AM
From what I can tell, your Hellish description describes much of the world now living under religious rule.

Most people are religious.  There is no sign that it will ever go away, anymore than art will go away (that one happens to dislike).  You can always propose humanitarian genocide ;-)  Perhaps nuclear attack on Iran?
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.