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Quest for Truth

Started by Absolute_Agent, June 16, 2019, 09:02:36 PM

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Unbeliever

#270
Yeah, how can they have any pudding if they don't eat their meat!?
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Baruch

Quote from: Unbeliever on August 02, 2019, 05:32:10 PM
There have been many times and places where religion and politics were so intimately intertwined that there was no practical difference between them. Not so much any more, because secular governments got tired of the violence religions insisted on using, and put a stop to it, for the most part.

Mostly anglophone, not from other cultures.  And because civil war between Catholicism and Anglicanism was the reality.  Absolute victory of one over the other was impossible.  Similarly the division between Scotland and England was over Presbyterianism, in Ireland over Catholicism, in N Ireland over Presbyterianism and in England it was Congregationalism vs Anglicanism.  Wales is divided from England because it is more Congregationalist.

This secular compromise is part of British politics more than European politics.  It is hard for other Europeans to understand, and incomprehensible for non-Europeans.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: Unbeliever on August 02, 2019, 02:02:11 PM
I think you're simply ascribing to religion whatever progress has been made without religion, as such, having anything to do with any of it.

All progress is by atheists ... eh Ensign Chekhov?
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: josephpalazzo on August 02, 2019, 02:51:26 PM
Nothing in my post says I'm a Marxist - I despise both people on the Left and on the Right. But that you misinterpreted my post as being Marxist is significant. It means you see things from the far Right POV, and at bottom, you are a fascist. Now live up to that, a religious nut who is a fascist to boot.

Both are socialist, totalitarian.  Both are anti-American.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on August 02, 2019, 03:49:06 PM
This:

"Why are all scriptures found in only one place on Earth, and slowly spread?"



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Not true.  Much comes from the Middle East, but also S Asia and E Asia.  With indigenous religion found ... everywhere.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on August 02, 2019, 05:47:18 PM
The concept of secularism was created by Christians who realized that Christianity was never meant to be a political affair and was therefore incapable of governing effectively. 

Before secularism, the idea of multiple religions existing in one nation was incomprehensible.  Naturally then they did get mixed up.  But the point of religion has never been about "keeping control of the masses" as @josephpalazzo asserts.  This is just another urban legend. Where it has been used this way, it was an abuse of design.

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More specifically, Englishmen, and American-English colonials.  Other people have never been that practical or tolerant.  They are addicted to jihad and crusade of all types.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Mike Cl

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on August 02, 2019, 04:49:31 PM
Ok.  For one thing many of these religions spread very rapidly, within the life time of their founding personalities, or within the same generation.  Secondly: God had to start somewhere didn't He?  Thirdly, most of them came intact with instructions, and a system of official representatives, priests, Apostles, Boddhisatvas, what have you-- personally trained by the founder to establish the teachings and spread them rapidly.  Lastly, each was tailored to the particular culture of origin to be organic to that culture, insuring maximum retention and longevity. 

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God had to start somewhere?  :))  How about at the beginning.  He created the entire universe, for heaven sake.  When he created Earth and created humans, surely he knew they would spread and speak different languages.  I find it impossible to think he would not have known how to speak and write those languages; to not include a comprehensive, understandable, consistent instruction guide for his creation is cruel at best and inept at worst.  Well, the bible did not come with intact instructions nor a system of official representatives;  the bible was assembled over a long, long time with much blood spilled over what the bible consisted of and how to interpret it.  The battle in Christendom is still raging.  There really is no 'The Bible' today and there never was. 

You say, 'Lastly, each was tailored to the particular culture of origin to be organic to that culture, ....'.  Naturally.  Since each culture invented their own concept of who and what god(s) were and how god operated.  After all, the concept of god is a purely human construct and used in each culture as a way of crowd control.  naturally.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Baruch

Part of the 70 prophets for 70 tribes mythology.  It made sense 2000 years ago.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Absolute_Agent

#278
Quote from: josephpalazzo on August 02, 2019, 05:57:58 PM
Labels like insults are cheap. My original post deals with people in power using religion for their own ends. There is politics in that statement, no doubt, but the main focus of that post is on the uses of religion, which you are unable or unwilling to address. That someone like you is a tool for those in power, and hence you are in denial.
I'm not a tool, first of all, and secondly I don't support any abuse of religion for power.  It has nothing to do with the purpose of religion.  Jesus said "my kingdom is not of this Earth;" I don't pretend that abuse never happens but that doesn't mean all religious people are supporting the use of religion for power, or "tools" of those who do.

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Absolute_Agent

Quote from: Mike Cl on August 02, 2019, 06:44:33 PM
Don't know what you mean by 'fallen'.  but if the Devil does exist then god (in your view) must have created it.  If not, then your god is not the only creator god creating things.  So, if your god is the only god, then he must have created everything--or it would not exist.  What do you mean by free will? 

And has anyone ever found a lion feasting on roots?  Biologically, the lion must eat meat or die.
To clarify, God created nothing in a fallen state.  To fall was an exercise of choice by the devil and thus he, not God is responsible for being fallen.  There's nothing complicated about free will--it just means you have the ability to make choices.  You're not a robot.  If God had made us all  robots then you could blame humanity's folly on Him, but He didn't.  We are responsible for ourselves.

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Absolute_Agent

#280
Quote from: Mike Cl on August 02, 2019, 06:44:33 PM
And has anyone ever found a lion feasting on roots?  Biologically, the lion must eat meat or die.
Again you assume (so much).  According to Genesis 1:30 God created all humans and animals to be vegetarian.  It was the fall of man which precipitated the savage conditions on Earth.  Again, free will.

"Two lions have been known to be vegetarian. Perhaps the most famous is “Little Tyke,” who died many years ago. The large cat was raised on a farm but refused to eat meat throughout the duration of her life.2 Her vegetarian diet showed that cats, though carnivorous in the wild, can easily be sustained on diets that are vegetarian."

Source:

https://answersingenesis.org/animal-behavior/what-animals-eat/unexpectedly-vegetarian-animals-what-does-it-mean/


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Mike Cl

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on August 02, 2019, 11:29:33 PM
  It has nothing to do with the purpose of religion.  Jesus said "my kingdom is not if this Earth;"
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Two things:
1--Just what is the purpose of religion and how do you know?

2--Jesus is a fiction (he never existed) and can be made to say anything. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Absolute_Agent

Quote from: Mike Cl on August 02, 2019, 11:44:56 PM
Two things:
1--Just what is the purpose of religion and how do you know?

2--Jesus is a fiction (he never existed) and can be made to say anything.
Everything I know about religion comes from contemplating the scriptures.  The purpose is the harmonization of the biological organism (the human body) with the indwelling soul and with its Creator. 

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Absolute_Agent



Quote from: Mike Cl on August 02, 2019, 11:44:56 PM
2--Jesus is a fiction (he never existed) and can be made to say anything.
Here is the full reference:

"Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place." John 18:36

Establishing political power is not the purpose of religion. People who use it for that are misusing it. 


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Hydra009

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on August 03, 2019, 12:15:02 AMEstablishing political power is not the purpose of religion. People who use it for that are misusing it.
Amazing.  We actually agree about something.  Religion ought not to be about political power.

But it is.

It is and that's why the world is the way that it is now.  It's why we both have religion highly ingrained in us from a very young age.  It's a lot of ideas went unspoken for years, sometimes centuries.  It's why other ideas were spread far and wide, to the willing and unwilling alike.  It's why a lot of people spent their whole lives not quite themselves.

I often wonder what would've happened had religion never really been completely organized, had religion remained idle speculation and shamanistic ritual, never passing into written law or the corridors of power.  What would be different?  What would be the same?