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Quest for Truth

Started by Absolute_Agent, June 16, 2019, 09:02:36 PM

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Mike Cl

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on August 02, 2019, 01:53:28 PM
Well you kind of lumped it all together when it's a number of different issues.  I like to address one thing at a time. God has never approved of killing, but in the context of scripture this is referring to things with a soul--people and animals.  But people became so savage in their rebellion that a concession was made in which animals could be killed for food.  Blood lust was so ingrained he couldn't take them off it cold turkey.  So in His wisdom he allowed animal flesh to wean the worst of them off the greater evil of cannibalism.  Kind of like nicotine gum.  In today's age we have become advanced and sophisticated enough to return to a vegetarian life style, and it's cool that you are leaning in that direction too, especially considering the amount of animal cruelty that is going on.

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Interesting.  Where did you get the info about what god is thinking.  God never approved of killing????  Read the OT; god is killing all the time.  He has no problem snuffing out an entire culture; man, woman and child.  Which I find extremely strange considering he is the creator of it all!  He seems to be very inept at creating creatures that he approves of.  And he created a system that makes a lion have to kill antelopes to live; and kill in a merciless manner.  If, as you say, bloodlust was ingrained, it was because god created the system that way.  He is to blame and nobody else.  I don't remember a time when cannibalism was widely accepted in human societies; and if the species were weaned off it--as you say--then it was that as a society it was put down; the human species itself figured out that cannibalism was counter productive for a human society/species to existing.  According to the OT, God created a flawed human from the very beginning.  And even later he had to use a flood to wipe out all people and creatures to get a fresh start at it.  And he screwed that up, as well.  Your creater god  is simply inept--and he takes it out on his creation, not himself.  For heaven's sake, he could not even get heaven right.  He created the devil and fallen angels.  Can't be more inept than that.   
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Absolute_Agent



Quote from: Mike Cl on August 02, 2019, 11:48:40 AMAnd what leads you to think I am unaware of the worlds religions or scriptures?
This:

"Why are all scriptures found in only one place on Earth, and slowly spread?"



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Absolute_Agent

Quote from: josephpalazzo on August 02, 2019, 02:51:26 PM
Nothing in my post says I'm a Marxist - I despise both people on the Left and on the Right. But that you misinterpreted my post as being Marxist is significant. It means you see things from the far Right POV, and at bottom, you are a fascist. Now live up to that, a religious nut who is a fascist to boot.
You are the one who sounds like a fascist, which is characterized by setting everything in Black and White stereotypes.

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josephpalazzo

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on August 02, 2019, 03:52:26 PM
You are the one who sounds like a fascist, which is characterized by setting everything in Black and White stereotypes.

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You have a reading problem. My post was about how people in power use religion to keep the ordinary common people under their hold. This is true in both fascist and communist countries. But you didn't see it that way, and now you can only respond with insults. You're a waste of time.

Mike Cl

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on August 02, 2019, 03:49:06 PM
This:

"Why are all scriptures found in only one place on Earth, and slowly spread?"



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Let me be more clear.  The bible was found in one place.  It was not found in Brazil, Spain, Jordan, Russia, etc.--at the time of the first bible.  And the bible did not just plop to the earth complete; it took a long process to get from those early writings to the various bibles that are extent in the world now.  And there is more than one version of the bible now--and that seems a bit odd to be the word of god. 

The Quran was found in only one place in the beginning.  The Hindu scriptures in a different place; the Buddhist scriptures the same; Zoroaster scriptures; and the same for all other scriptures.  Or, in other words, There was not one scripture found in more than one place.  All are a refection of the fact that all religions started as regional and spread only slowly.  Why would a god not be able to issue one set of instructions that could be read and understood in all places on the world and understood without the help of a set of priests of some type?  It is as though each culture created its own god and word of god. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Absolute_Agent

Quote from: Mike Cl on August 02, 2019, 02:52:38 PM
Interesting.  Where did you get the info about what god is thinking.  God never approved of killing????  Read the OT; god is killing all the time.  He has no problem snuffing out an entire culture; man, woman and child.  Which I find extremely strange considering he is the creator of it all!  He seems to be very inept at creating creatures that he approves of.  And he created a system that makes a lion have to kill antelopes to live; and kill in a merciless manner.  If, as you say, bloodlust was ingrained, it was because god created the system that way.  He is to blame and nobody else.  I don't remember a time when cannibalism was widely accepted in human societies; and if the species were weaned off it--as you say--then it was that as a society it was put down; the human species itself figured out that cannibalism was counter productive for a human society/species to existing.  According to the OT, God created a flawed human from the very beginning.  And even later he had to use a flood to wipe out all people and creatures to get a fresh start at it.  And he screwed that up, as well.  Your creater god  is simply inept--and he takes it out on his creation, not himself.  For heaven's sake, he could not even get heaven right.  He created the devil and fallen angels.  Can't be more inept than that.
God created nothing fallen. The agency that he gave free will beings as a gift allows them to choose destruction, or to choose goodness.  If you want to go live in a world where everyone's forced to be good, be my guest.  True freedom includes the ability to abuse that freedom.  Have you ever tried to raise lions on veggie burgers?  If not then you don't know that they are required to kill zebras to survive.  You only assume.

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Absolute_Agent

#261
Quote from: josephpalazzo on August 02, 2019, 04:02:04 PM
You have a reading problem. My post was about how people in power use religion to keep the ordinary common people under their hold. This is true in both fascist and communist countries. But you didn't see it that way, and now you can only respond with insults. You're a waste of time.
Well you have a myopic view of history. Power has been abused by all sorts, religious or otherwise. Are you an Anarchist?

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Absolute_Agent

Quote from: Mike Cl on August 02, 2019, 04:20:33 PM
Let me be more clear.  The bible was found in one place.  It was not found in Brazil, Spain, Jordan, Russia, etc.--at the time of the first bible.  And the bible did not just plop to the earth complete; it took a long process to get from those early writings to the various bibles that are extent in the world now.  And there is more than one version of the bible now--and that seems a bit odd to be the word of god. 

The Quran was found in only one place in the beginning.  The Hindu scriptures in a different place; the Buddhist scriptures the same; Zoroaster scriptures; and the same for all other scriptures.  Or, in other words, There was not one scripture found in more than one place.  All are a refection of the fact that all religions started as regional and spread only slowly.  Why would a god not be able to issue one set of instructions that could be read and understood in all places on the world and understood without the help of a set of priests of some type?  It is as though each culture created its own god and word of god.
Ok.  For one thing many of these religions spread very rapidly, within the life time of their founding personalities, or within the same generation.  Secondly: God had to start somewhere didn't He?  Thirdly, most of them came intact with instructions, and a system of official representatives, priests, Apostles, Boddhisatvas, what have you-- personally trained by the founder to establish the teachings and spread them rapidly.  Lastly, each was tailored to the particular culture of origin to be organic to that culture, insuring maximum retention and longevity. 

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josephpalazzo

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on August 02, 2019, 04:31:58 PM
Well you have a myopic view of history.


Are you done with your insults? Coming from someone who has a reading problem, that's rich. You can't read a post without jumping to extreme conclusions. The myopic person is you.

QuotePower has been abused by all sorts, religious or otherwise. Are you an Anarchist?


Again jumping to extreme conclusion. Why don't you address the post squarely on as opposed to stupid questions. Marxist, fascist and now anarchist?!? WTF. It should be clear to you that by now I'm an atheist, political labels aren't at play when a post addresses the abuses and misuses of power and its flagrant use of religion to keep people in their place. And useful idiots like you, myopic as you are, are enablers of those corrupted people in power. Shame on you.

Absolute_Agent

Quote from: josephpalazzo on August 02, 2019, 05:14:44 PM

Are you done with your insults? Coming from someone who has a reading problem, that's rich. You can't read a post without jumping to extreme conclusions. The myopic person is you.


Again jumping to extreme conclusion. Why don't you address the post squarely on as opposed to stupid questions. Marxist, fascist and now anarchist?!? WTF. It should be clear to you that by now I'm an atheist, political labels aren't at play when a post addresses the abuses and misuses of power and its flagrant use of religion to keep people in their place. And useful idiots like you, myopic as you are, are enablers of those corrupted people in power. Shame on you.
Atheism isn't a political party last time I checked, and your original comment addressed politics, which has little to do with religion.  Are you afraid of being labeled?

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Unbeliever

There have been many times and places where religion and politics were so intimately intertwined that there was no practical difference between them. Not so much any more, because secular governments got tired of the violence religions insisted on using, and put a stop to it, for the most part.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Absolute_Agent

#266
Quote from: Unbeliever on August 02, 2019, 05:32:10 PM
There have been many times and places where religion and politics were so intimately intertwined that there was no practical difference between them. Not so much any more, because secular governments got tired of the violence religions insisted on using, and put a stop to it, for the most part.
The concept of secularism was created by Christians who realized that Christianity was never meant to be a political affair and was therefore incapable of governing effectively. 

Before secularism, the idea of multiple religions existing in one nation was incomprehensible.  Naturally then they did get mixed up.  But the point of religion has never been about "keeping control of the masses" as @josephpalazzo asserts.  This is just another urban legend. Where it has been used this way, it was an abuse of design.

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josephpalazzo

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on August 02, 2019, 05:29:08 PM
Atheism isn't a political party last time I checked, and your original comment addressed politics, which has little to do with religion.  Are you afraid of being labeled?

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Labels like insults are cheap. My original post deals with people in power using religion for their own ends. There is politics in that statement, no doubt, but the main focus of that post is on the uses of religion, which you are unable or unwilling to address. That someone like you is a tool for those in power, and hence you are in denial.

Unbeliever

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on August 02, 2019, 05:47:18 PM
The concept of secularism was created by Christians who realized that Christianity was never meant to be a political affair and was therefore incapable of governing effectively. 

You remind me of Ensign Chekov, who always said "we Russians invented that" about everything good.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Mike Cl

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on August 02, 2019, 04:29:47 PM
God created nothing fallen. The agency that he gave free will beings as a gift allows them to choose destruction, or to choose goodness.  If you want to go live in a world where everyone's forced to be good, be my guest.  True freedom includes the ability to abuse that freedom.  Have you ever tried to raise lions on veggie burgers?  If not then you don't know that they are required to kill zebras to survive.  You only assume.

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Don't know what you mean by 'fallen'.  but if the Devil does exist then god (in your view) must have created it.  If not, then your god is not the only creator god creating things.  So, if your god is the only god, then he must have created everything--or it would not exist.  What do you mean by free will? 

And has anyone ever found a lion feasting on roots?  Biologically, the lion must eat meat or die. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?