Author Topic: Quest for Truth  (Read 8027 times)

Offline aitm

Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #195 on: June 20, 2019, 08:19:36 PM »
"poppycock"......LOL  what a twit.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #196 on: June 21, 2019, 02:02:08 PM »
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Here's his answer:

If you look you will see many signs of Allah's mercy.  The rain, the love of a mother, the comfort of your bed... Why pain?  Pain is a mercy as it keeps you alive.  Without pain the body would disintegrate through lack of attention.  It's not fun, but it has a merciful outcome.  Why animals kill and people hurt one another?  Free will.  Its better to live in freedom with the possibility of experiencing the negative choices of other free will creatures against you then to live trapped in a perfect world without the freedom of choice.  This is a mercy.   In order to mitigate the harmful actions of free will creatures against others, Allah gave us additional mercy in the form of laws and commandments--to the effect of love one another and do good to others, etc.  We can choose now to follow a course where these bad things don't happen, we have the necessary tools and information.  This is mercy upon mercy.

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First: Are you Arik's personal agent?


Second: that reply does not answer the initial question. It seems to be answering to the question: "show me where the mercy is?" Mike Cl's question is totally different.


As Arik's agent, you failed to read the question properly, and double-failed in not noticing the failed answer.


As a troll you get an "F".

Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #197 on: July 27, 2019, 11:04:17 AM »
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First: Are you Arik's personal agent?


First tell me, are you Mike CI's personal agent?

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Second: that reply does not answer the initial question. It seems to be answering to the question: "show me where the mercy is?" Mike Cl's question is totally different.

On the contrary, Mike CI's question is all about mercy, since this is a primary attribute of God, by which His reality can be known.  If it is otherwise, let him speak for himself, unless of course you are a mind reader or claim to be his agent.



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« Last Edit: July 27, 2019, 11:24:36 AM by Absolute_Agent »

Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #198 on: July 27, 2019, 01:03:07 PM »
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First tell me, are you Mike CI's personal agent?

On the contrary, Mike CI's question is all about mercy, since this is a primary attribute of God, by which His reality can be known.  If it is otherwise, let him speak for himself, unless of course you are a mind reader or claim to be his agent.



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Yes, I am Mike Cl's personal agent.  Always have been. 

I have had many people tell me that one of the major attributes of god is mercy.  I would say--first, demonstrate for me that god (any god) exists.  And then, we can discuss if any god displays mercy.  I have not seen a demonstration by anybody that any god exists so I'd have to say that all gods are fiction. 

I look around the world, especially at nature, and I don't see evidence of any trace of 'mercy' from a creator being.  Nature on this planet is not merciful--it is based on killing and eating something before it can kill and eat you.  Nature is based on death--and pain and suffering.  Our first two needs, oxygen(or something for breath) and water are supplied by the environment and does not require us to be violent to get them.  Food is also supplied by our environment, and your creator god showed he/it knew how to plan for life without destruction--he created plants that need only sunlight to gather it's needed energy.  Animals, however, must kill to gather our energy needs.  In fact, humans must kill to live.  I must eat something that was alive (plant or animal) for me to survive.  If I refuse to eat, I still kill--myself.  So, your creator god, in all his wisdom and mercy, created death and destruction as my only way to survive.  That is not my idea of mercy.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #199 on: July 27, 2019, 01:16:59 PM »
The God of the Bible is certainly not "merciful," given the many horrible things that it was credited with, and threats of the horrible things it'd do in the future, like Jeremiah 25:33

Jeremiah 25:33 King James Version (KJV)
Quote
33 And the slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.


Not what I'd call "full of mercy."
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"Christians, like slaves and soldiers, ask no questions."  Jerry Falwell
"Who says lying doesn't get you anywhere? Look at the success of Christianity!"  C. Spellman
"There is a sucker born-again every minute."  C. Spellman

Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #200 on: July 27, 2019, 01:34:58 PM »
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Yes, I am Mike Cl's personal agent.  Always have been. 

I have had many people tell me that one of the major attributes of god is mercy.  I would say--first, demonstrate for me that god (any god) exists.  And then, we can discuss if any god displays mercy.  I have not seen a demonstration by anybody that any god exists so I'd have to say that all gods are fiction. 

I look around the world, especially at nature, and I don't see evidence of any trace of 'mercy' from a creator being.  Nature on this planet is not merciful--it is based on killing and eating something before it can kill and eat you.  Nature is based on death--and pain and suffering.  Our first two needs, oxygen(or something for breath) and water are supplied by the environment and does not require us to be violent to get them.  Food is also supplied by our environment, and your creator god showed he/it knew how to plan for life without destruction--he created plants that need only sunlight to gather it's needed energy.  Animals, however, must kill to gather our energy needs.  In fact, humans must kill to live.  I must eat something that was alive (plant or animal) for me to survive.  If I refuse to eat, I still kill--myself.  So, your creator god, in all his wisdom and mercy, created death and destruction as my only way to survive.  That is not my idea of mercy.

I don't dispute that life is characterized by suffering & death.  Life is also characterized by birth and growth, happiness and pleasure.  Where do you think these came from--random accidents?  What I do find perplexing is how the existence of suffering is assumed to cancel out the existence of comfort and pleasure, or negate the possibility of mercy.  You assume that plants must suffer when they are cooked and eaten--but how do you know?  Does your asparagus cry and scream when you are placing it in your mouth?  As for animals, it is not necessary to kill and eat them in order to survive, we've only been conditioned to eat this way.  It's actually much more efficient and healthy to be vegetarian.

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Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #201 on: July 27, 2019, 01:38:23 PM »
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The God of the Bible is certainly not "merciful," given the many horrible things that it was credited with, and threats of the horrible things it'd do in the future, like Jeremiah 25:33

Jeremiah 25:33 King James Version (KJV)

Not what I'd call "full of mercy."
Death can be merciful at times, especially if it is the death of an oppressor.

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Offline Baruch

Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #202 on: July 27, 2019, 04:36:09 PM »
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The God of the Bible is certainly not "merciful," given the many horrible things that it was credited with, and threats of the horrible things it'd do in the future, like Jeremiah 25:33

Jeremiah 25:33 King James Version (KJV)

Not what I'd call "full of mercy."

The apologetics ... G-d should exterminate the human race.  Any day G-d doesn't exterminate the human race, is a day of grace, an opportunity to repent.  You can't repent after dying.

Not my theology.
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Baruch

Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #203 on: July 27, 2019, 04:38:18 PM »
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I don't dispute that life is characterized by suffering & death.  Life is also characterized by birth and growth, happiness and pleasure.  Where do you think these came from--random accidents?  What I do find perplexing is how the existence of suffering is assumed to cancel out the existence of comfort and pleasure, or negate the possibility of mercy.  You assume that plants must suffer when they are cooked and eaten--but how do you know?  Does your asparagus cry and scream when you are placing it in your mouth?  As for animals, it is not necessary to kill and eat them in order to survive, we've only been conditioned to eat this way.  It's actually much more efficient and healthy to be vegetarian.

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Materialists say ... some atoms are happier than others.

Kirelian photography shows that even plants blanched at the news that Trump was elected ;-)
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #204 on: July 27, 2019, 06:47:55 PM »
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I don't dispute that life is characterized by suffering & death.  Life is also characterized by birth and growth, happiness and pleasure.  Where do you think these came from--random accidents?  What I do find perplexing is how the existence of suffering is assumed to cancel out the existence of comfort and pleasure, or negate the possibility of mercy.  You assume that plants must suffer when they are cooked and eaten--but how do you know?  Does your asparagus cry and scream when you are placing it in your mouth?  As for animals, it is not necessary to kill and eat them in order to survive, we've only been conditioned to eat this way.  It's actually much more efficient and healthy to be vegetarian.

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And I just demonstrated that plants live.  And in order for you, or I, to live, we MUST kill.  No choice.  You can down play what a plant does and does not feel; and exactly what you said, how do you know?  I do know that plants died before I ate them.  and we do know that plants DO feel at some level and make choices about what direction to grow in and communicate on a certain level.  If plants can live on sun power, why not animals?????  Was you creative hero too uncaring or too stupid to make it happen???
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #205 on: July 28, 2019, 08:24:49 AM »
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And I just demonstrated that plants live.  And in order for you, or I, to live, we MUST kill.  No choice.  You can down play what a plant does and does not feel; and exactly what you said, how do you know?  I do know that plants died before I ate them.  and we do know that plants DO feel at some level and make choices about what direction to grow in and communicate on a certain level.  If plants can live on sun power, why not animals?????  Was you creative hero too uncaring or too stupid to make it happen???
I think plants were specifically designed by our Creator as food.  Animals and people were not meant to serve as food for each other.  It is possible to harvest fruits without killing the entire plant--as in the case of tomatoes and apples and so forth.  The pruning effect that animals and humans have in consuming part of the plant actually has a beneficial outcome by producing increased growth.  As a plant I should think this was a good deal.  Furthermore all evidence is that plant life does not possess a central nervous system that would enable it to experience pain.  This is by design.  Additionally, plants inhale CO2 and exhale oxygen--the exact reverse process of mammals-- a very symbiotic arrangement.  It seems to me that our Creator exercises great wisdom and care in all His works.

This is only one side of the story though.  I find that pain doesn't nullify mercy.  In some cases it actually enhances pleasure in moderate amounts.  For instance the pain experienced eating hot peppers produces a mild euphoria while intensifying the taste of food.   Haven't you ever wanted to "spice things up"?  The possibility of pain and danger adds a certain thrill to life you couldn't get in a cushy bland world.  Why else would people go to the theaters for the sole purpose of being scared?  For suspense?  Because when you are never challenged things get very boring.  This is part of the wisdom of creation that for me, proves it's not some random accident but was designed by an infinitely benevolent intelligence--or as we believers call it, God.

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« Last Edit: July 28, 2019, 08:27:58 AM by Absolute_Agent »

Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #206 on: July 28, 2019, 09:28:00 AM »
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I think plants were specifically designed by our Creator as food.  Animals and people were not meant to serve as food for each other.
and you know this----how????  Never mind; you are like a puff of wind--no substance and no knowledge.  You are just not worth the effort, for you don't put forth any effort.  Like
Airk, you are just hot air.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #207 on: July 28, 2019, 10:30:13 AM »
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and you know this----how????  Never mind; you are like a puff of wind--no substance and no knowledge.  You are just not worth the effort, for you don't put forth any effort.  Like
Airk, you are just hot air.
I know it through intelligent contemplation of the scriptures and the natural world around us (Genesis 1:29).  How do you know vegetables suffer when you eat them?

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Offline Baruch

Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #208 on: July 28, 2019, 10:33:21 AM »
This forum repeatedly demonstrates that human are descended, not ascended, from primates ;-)

Typically "progressive" means upper-middle class white male Northern California college educated "colonial superiority".  The Ganja-man's burden.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2019, 10:35:21 AM by Baruch »
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline aitm

Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #209 on: July 28, 2019, 05:06:52 PM »
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I know it through intelligent contemplation of the scriptures

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now there's an oxymoron if ever....LOL
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

 

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